Author Topic: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing  (Read 13631 times)

hoodlum

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2012, 08:19:45 AM »
I have not....I could see where some of the competitors that are probably running a balanced high revving engine might consider them...I can't even think of a benefit that out-weighs the cost in our application...

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 11:33:31 AM »
This will be a great discussion. When we look at the stock Honda pilot bearing we see marking on them. We also look in the manual and we see service limits. We also see recommendation on items like oil to gas ratio.  Yes these were set back iin 89/90 and oil development in two cycle oil been improved. Most of the time we just thank of the piston lubration. Yes bearing as well. As we (I) changed from 20 to 1 to 32 to 1  or other oils and ratios via a higher grade of oil. I considered a few things. First of all I use HP-2 from Honda at 32 to 1. We and most have seen failures from loss of lubrication in one way or another. Heat build power and it also stresses parts like bearings.  I know, get to the point.

Lets look at the marking on the bearing. Manafacture, size and type. The mfg  name tells us were to look for the data, the size tells us the fitment and the type in this case of the c3 rating tells us clearances. The clearances of the c3 is the choice for the application in stock trim for the pilot. The bearings fit tight ( press fit, case ID smaller than bearing OD) in the cases and tight on the crank shaft ( Shaft OD greater than Bearing ID),if in good shape and or new.

The manual ( 9-1) gives us the numbers for parameters of the crankshaft which is a related part to the bearings. Theres some more to factor in but not in the manual. All of these numbers play a part in the operation of the bearing. The manual also fails to tell us the operating speed of the engine however Honda sets a rev limiter (somewhere around 7600 rpm) in the CDI another factor in the bearings use. Another interesting factor is load and as most know the 350 has no torque limiter in the transmission like the pilot to act as a buffer to the load. Yep the trans has bearings as well. 

Though out some babble, looking at the numbers on 9-1 and thinking in your head what does these mean as the crank assembly rotates ( 2 radians=360 degrees). The first thing to pop in my head are run out or wobble as it rotates. This will also load to the main bearings as the shaft moves up and down and side to side in the bearings bore axis. This wobble is like unbalances wheel on a car. The clearance built into the bearing takes up some of this axial movement in a radial motion. Now you see why the Nissan axle bearing is a subbed for the c3 rating is a fitment for the application.  You can also see why the bearings either spin in the case or come apart based on crank run out. One can also make a assumption that the end play (thrust) and radial clearance on the rod and its bearing assembly can play into this as well. Since the crank is pulled tight into the clutch side case and then the flywheel side is installed the clutch side, it the alignment within these numbers related to the rest of the parts installed. Now you have a frequently ask question as to why Honda only put alignment dowels on the clutch side case and the cylinder is made for their fitment.  The bottom end assembly and related crank numbers is another discussion so I'll skip that babble.

What if we installed a Cn or C2 in place of a C3.  First we need the clearance numbers to determine fitment. in the case of radial clearance it would be the distance between the four contact points within the bearing, up and down if you will. For axial we need to know the amount of lateral movement theirs is between the inner and outer race, in and out if you will (SEE PIC ).  These numbers must come from the MFG unless you got one heck of a shop I know I don't. Remember where talking about the deep ball grove pilot bearing. Again you can visualize in your head how a out of round crank can exert forces on the bearing to lock it up until something gives. Now let?s look at the two cycle oil used for lubrication.  Yes back to heat and its dissipation. The oil is used to take heat away from the bearings cause by friction forces. Imagine if you will at let?s say 5000 rpm that bearing is spun 2 radians ( 360 degrees) at 83.33 times a second 5000 (revolutions per minute) /60 (seconds in a minute)= 83.333. Yes that hauling a _ _.  Now exert the additional load of the out of spec crank assembly. How much oil is needed to shead the heat until it reaches is self destruct point. Well not long if it exceeds it class of clearances. Now time for a quick fact related to the Honda specs. If memory serves the C3 is a 10,500 rpm bearing, which is rated around 75% so lets take 10,500x.75 and see what we get =7875. See any correlation yet. Should I even mention max piston speed for the pilot at its bore and stroke again another discussion. A quick note related here is the square bore and the force excreted on the rod and bearing assembly further compounding the axial clearance. Heck what if the cases are not parallel to the bearing that number must be factored into the total equation. One will compound the other and the effects show up on the crank,guden pin, piston and cylinder. As it rotates up and down if the clearances are exceeded force is being applied to the tight parts until they self clear which are wear indicators like scuffing, marred pins ect. You need to know how much you have to play with TDC to BDC to make sure it can handle the stresses of the increases in load. As it get hot thing grow and there a lot of part, use of those parts that can effect it all the way through an engine build. You here thing like velocity density port time area angle area , rpm , pipe tune, CCR ect.

As we discuss a change in the bearing let?s look at the clearance number for the bearing being used and under what engine parameters.
More later, need to head to work. Man I love this stuff thanks for the opportunity to share and discuss.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 10:38:59 PM by Adnoh »

hoodlum

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 01:43:30 PM »
Just thinking myself....I presume that a c3 rating has much tighter tolerance than that of a standard 6306/32....Considering things grow when heated up,the tolerances get tighter...Wonder if the c3 numbers you threw out are the same when the bearing reaches operating temps?Also,I run 40:1 Amsoil...I know the oil is better than back in the 90's,and the lubrication properties are probably much better....But.....Less oil getting between the balls and races could still mean less ability to cushion and get rid of the heat....
So....My pilot has the rev limiter removed,ported,pipe,powerblock,and carb....I am positive that I punch through that 7600rpm mark often...Considering all these factors,would someone in my position be better running a bearing with not quite as tight of a tolerance?
Hoodlum

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 12:43:51 PM »
Keep thinking Hoodlum that's what a discussion is for.

C3 rating: The 6306 bearing can be purched in a varity of ratings and tolerences.
6306/32: This is a special 32mm ID bore for the flywheel side of the pilot. The standard 6306 is 30mm ID.

The C3 rating is static, unmounted as you hold it in your hand. The pilot bearing and may also apply to the ody pretty sure it does due to it's application, is a pressed fit or supposed to be. This press fit closes up the clearence to a negitive number or preload if you will. Poss a what if, lets say the cases are not tight and the bearing  just slips in. What does most do, they lock tight it in or use a retaining compound This does nothing for the clearences reduction on the outer race. However the inner race has press fit in most cases. I have seen it the other way around though outer case tight and crank slips in. Each one of these will have an effect on the bearing when in operation. This is why I like to note the disasembly of the case and the amount of heat/ force which way they come apart ect. It provides me with a clue of the state of the bearing and related parts. Back to stock new condition for  minute, the base line is a press fitment on both crank and case and the amount of force used to install sets the preload or a clearence change. The outer race sets static does not moves during operation and the inner turnes with the rotating assembly.  You should also notice that more force is required to remove the clutch side than the flywheel side. Is this by design?  Not sure but makes since to me due too the alignment of the assembly is set on the clutch side.

A note here as well.I stated the rpm limits of 10,500 at 75%. I looked it up and there at 12,000, this will take the rpm safe operating rpm to 9,000. Got love those Honda enginers. (See pics) That means honda had dessigned a very safe limit for the main bearings in terms of speed at the given clearence. That  put stock around 63% at the revlimiter.

Grow with heat: Great point.  This ones a little tuffer to wrap your hed around or at least for me. Theres a lot at play here with the bearing and the heating of it as well as the surrounding materials ans at what temps. Quess I should start off with first of all the bearing material its self, steel. Than look at what the ID and OD and its adjacent material, The ID is a steel crank with lot of mass which is subject to a varity of heat sources/load and source of colling propertys of which the load of the engine is being transfered to the bearings balls and then out to the OD which set in a pocket of ALuminum which is also subject to amiant tempature and some heat of the load and its the job of this case pocket to transfer and disapate the heat load. Dang, head hurt now and will move on. Like the piston in the cylinder the fitment effects the transfer and we know as it heats up it grows to fit the cylinder. We alos know that if the clerence is to great the piston can go out of square warp,loose it intended shape. The wear is most visable and the relted part also show this as well. One indacater is the Guedon pin(wrist pin), it willbe hard to remove from the piston new shape.

IF the bearing is not sitting tight in the pocket as intended than I would think the clearece or the intended clearence will effect the bearing ability to achieve proper equilibrium or heat generated and heat removed. If the tempature point of balance is higher than expected than a change in clearence may be warrented.  The load,rpm,oil ect will effect this. I'm not sure if an increas in clearence in this case would be warrented but rather a decrease. Thats one for the engineers.

I,lll post some bearing data pics from Nachi showing the differences in clearences of a C2,C3 and CN. for discussion.

LiveWire

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 01:57:58 PM »
Regarding the assumptions on the FL350. The bearings are also C3, but they are are a very loose fit on the crank and cases. Usually, they come right off the crank without effort. The effort to remove from the cases is minimal. While I heat mine to get the bearings out, it is common for them to just fall out and I do use bearing set on them when that happens. The only person I know of to have bearing failures (twice in a row) had lapped his cases. I told him at the time I thought he took all the clearance out of the bearings by bringing the cases slightly closer together. After replacing the case halves and putting back together with the same crank (new rod, etc..), he did not have a problem again. Back when I had a tach, I was spinning mine up to 9200 and I believe it is a little higher now.

LiveWire

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 04:39:51 PM »
Ugh, you have me sucked into this. So it seems some of the other numbers on the bearing would indicate if it was designed for an interference fit on the shaft and/or housing. I was looking at this: http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalogue/calculationsFilter?lang=en&reloading=false&next=ok&windowName=some&action=Tolerances1&newlink=1_1_1&calcform=form1&calc_extrainfo=false&prodid=1050010306&btRadio=Normal&stRadio=h3

Does anyone know if this bearing is interference fit in the case and on the crank in it's original application?

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2012, 10:58:20 AM »
Good your into the discussion livewire. More the marrier. You have had many engine apart and I,m sure you have lots to add.

LiveWire

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2012, 11:37:24 AM »
So I got one of these bearings in yesterday. I don't have a set of cases opened up, but I have a Pilot crank handy. I want to compare the ID of the bearing to the OD of the crank to see how much interference fit is there.

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 12:14:07 PM »
Cool, I have parts as well. Lets get to measuring things up. I may even have a 350 case in the garage. I looked at the ody manual and it appears there a pressure fitment as well. They mention drive n the bearing and pull the crank. Been a while since I took apart a 350 case.

The link is assume, I like the 3D viewer of the parts

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 12:19:30 PM »
Hers a pic of a crank and whats left of a beaing that got to hot and came apart. The crank run out is excessive and may have lead to the unbalance heat and distroyed it. I'll get the run out numbers ect forthis crank. With the damage on the cranks end its hard to get an acurate number I may need to clean it up and do a comparison. It was welded to the crank had to cut and split it off. Its a good example of a failure related to clearence,heat,load and rpm.

LiveWire

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 03:54:30 PM »
Despite what the manual for the FL350 says, it is rare if ever where I could not just slide the crank into the bearings by hand. One thing though is that as far back as I can remember, when I ordered the bearings from Honda, I would get a different part number. It seems the bearing had been discontinued for a very long time, but they superseded it with another part number. So it is possible that the ones I have always been sent, even from Honda, were very slightly larger ID for a slip fit instead of a press fit. The originals would have had extra numbers after the C3 to indicate a shaft and/or bore fitment.

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »
Good to know livewire. I pulled some pilot bearing out and a case half for the 350 and did some measuring. I have orignal 6306 that came out of factory cases and some from rebuild after orignal sets came out. Interesting thing. Factroy orignals did not have the C3 markings and the replacments did. By accident I put the 63/32 on top for the pic I will reshoot new pic. The other bearing of the set did not have the C3 mark. Cool stuff or what. I will dig out some 350 bearing and compare to the pilots.

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2012, 07:21:47 PM »
Crap I forgot I also have a Yahama bearing to through inthe mix. Found it my box a while back. Yes I'll get a pics of it to.

Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 02:22:10 PM »
On the cleaence related to fit or preload I entered them into a woork book for comparison.  I will futher entr data and expand the book.

What I though Honda was doing may not be the case. and futher investagation and discussion is warrented. I will call a bearing company I did some work for which schooled me in bearings a while back and get there opion.  I I read the info collected correcty than theres a issue. Since engine are runnig fine I have to be wrong. I need to understand this better.

Looking at the pics and pic of the work book see it backward when it come to propper choice.

I have used bearing that came from a factory sealed engine that are what to be an unmarked or CN bering which in the case of the pilot is a prloaded press fit on both sides. Then a rebiuld factroy set that has the C3 on it which is also a press fit.

Looking at the chart with the clearences the CN and C3 has about the same amount of clearence built in to them comparing min and max.  Comparing the minium clearence numbers uninstalled the CN or what I think is the factory bearing Has a tighter tolerence by.008 over the C3. So why did honda change this, if this is the  case. I assume they did it to allow for more room for things to move or be out of alignment and still run within a given tolerence. This is fine and and I would say good in a tight engine for our application.

Now lets look at a what if.  As Live wire has mentioned on the 350 cases and I have seen in pilot engines the fitment of the bearings is what we call Loose push inand crank slide on. Knowing the preload is less  would the CN be a better choice for the use of a locking agent and still maintaing a good tolerence or amount of clearence. I look at it as if the C3 was used there would a greater chance of failure based on the lack of preload at higher load. This would indeed change the temapture balance to higher number. This is where a higher grade at a given amount of two clycle oil plays a part in the bearing survival rate. It can cussion the load or transfer it without break down at a higher temp.


Adnoh

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Re: Right Side 6306/32 Main Bearing
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 09:37:58 PM »
Heres a pic of the Yahama bearing. I also have a bad 350 case half donated by stixs a while back. The pilots 6306 does slip in and the yahama does not. It appers to be a touch larger in dia. I do not know the clearences yet but wil try to find out. I talked to stixs and he is saving me some 350 bearings to look over.