Author Topic: transmission  (Read 4709 times)

Lee1968UK

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« on: May 09, 2006, 04:22:22 PM »
please bare with me i am new to forums, Has anyone tried to use a john deere gator transmission in a pilot or similar. It has forward, neutral, reverse, and it has a diff and also a diff lock. It also has brakes built in to the transmission one for each side, i think they are wet multi plate like a motorcycle clutch.
I am thinking it can be used in diff lock (so would be just like a pilot transmission) or used with the diff and use the brakes as fiddle brakes. I used to race a chenowth type buggy and when you get used to using fiddle brakes they are great, especially around tight corners or any          situation where understeer is a problem.
If this is workable, my main worry is that the transmission is strong enough, for standard pilot engine? tuned pilot engine? rotax twin? or even i have a spare tuned gsxr 1000 engine!  :lol:  
I have some photos of this transmission but can not work out how to post a picture on the forum. Any advice would appreciated. Thanks Lee.[/img]

nuke em

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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 04:48:32 PM »
Hi Lee and of course "Welcome". Interesting idea. My uncle has a Gator he uses on the farm back in Missouri. I am a little concerned about the gearing, and like you said, how much power it can hold up to. I don't think the top end was very high on my uncles gator, maybe 25-30MPH? But it was probably only turning 4,000 RPMs too. What kind of output shafts does it use(axle splines?)?

Do you already have the tranny? If so, go for it. Keep us posted, I want to know. That maybe a good source for replacment trannies if it works well.

I am not much on computer stuff but someone here can help with that. I would like to see the tranny.

Moskito

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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 04:54:21 PM »
First and foremost,

WELCOME TO THE SITE!!!   :D

I'm the local pain in the arse.  8)

Gator tranny - I must say, that's a new one.  Seen/heard many ideas, but this one's new.  I like it - it may have merrit.

Okay, let's get down to business.

Do you, by chance, know what gear ratios the Gator tranny is?  Pilots are roughly 10.something (I want to say 10.8?):1 forward, somewhere near 11.something:1 in reverse and, obviously neutral's whatever to 0.

Stock engine needs the stock gearing in forward.  Once you start adding HP, then you can run lower ratios - albiet you can't get lower ratios for the Pilot tranny.   If you start messing w/the four strokes, they'll allow taller ratios (Gixxer would probably be happy in the 6:1 or less range)

So, if your Gator tranny's a lower ratio, you're going to want more HP.

I'm out in left field on the idea of a diff in a Pilot.. Hmmm.... Dunno!!! :?   Could be interesting.

I'm so used to my off road vehicles having a live axle that the diff idea's foreign to me.  I steer with the rear end and brakes/throttle as much as I use the steering wheel, so a diff would take me a while to adjust to.

That said, I know of a couple guys that run single seat cars w/a diff and love them - so I would imagine that a diff would/could add a new dimension to the Pilot.

The fact that you could lock out the diff would be a plus.  May only want to unlock it during tight riding, such as in the woods on narrow trails.

What about the output shafts of the Gator???   The Pilot has about 2" (pardon, about 52mm) of plunge on the inner CV joints.  If the Gator has the ability for a plunging CV (do the Pilot inner CVs happen to plug into a Gator??? - probably not - they don't go into anything) you may have something that could be pursued.

I would venture a guess that the Gator tranny would be strong enough.  The Gator's a tank compared to a Pilot  - and it's design is load bearing and such, so it's probably strong enough.

Does the Gator use a CVT (belt and clutches) drive train?  Do you know the input shaft diameter?

Speaking of turn brakes (I think you called them fiddle brakes?) - not fun when you're racing in a live axle car, right on the guy with fiddle brakes back bumper, going into a corner and he's suddenly completely sideways in front of you and you're heading for his side panel.  YIKES!!!  I learned to change my line and avoid him - was fun, though!

Posting pix is actually quite easy.
In the upper left corner, there's a window that says "Message body" and "Add an Attachment" - just follow the instructions.

If you need help, you can send me the pic and I'll get it up for you.

Once again, welcome to the site.

Oh sure - beat me to it Nuke Em - here I was, one handed typing and you come along and take the subject...  8)
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

nuke em

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2006, 08:07:33 PM »
Snooze you lose Skeeter!   Don't start the "I can't type but with one Quasimoto hand" stuff. LMAO Just kidding.

I would like to see a picture of it too Lee.

Moskito

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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2006, 09:33:41 PM »
You mean this??   :D



I hate this thing!!!



I'm typing fine now....  8)
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

Lee1968UK

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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 12:16:19 AM »
Thanks for the comments, here's the pictures (hopefully)  :?

Not sure about the ratios will check.

in image 29 The spined shaft at the top is the input shaft, (gator uses CVT)  The big shaft at the bottom is the output shaft and the lever is brakes for this side only. ( Has the same again on the other side)

In picture A (the last one) the bracket on the bottom right hand corner (plated) is for the diff lock

Moskito

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 04:45:37 AM »
Man, that thing is HUGE...
I'd be sticking with the Pilot tranny in the Pilot...  They can handle upwards of 100 hp and survive.  The slipper clutch is the "weak" link in the system, but you can modify it slightly (more preload on the four springs) to deal with more HP.

The Gator tranny's width is probably more of a problem than anything.

Is that a YZ or WR in the background?
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2006, 07:08:32 AM »
Big..yes....but I really like the ideea of the locking diff and the individual brakes...man you could wheelie AND steer!  :lol:  I want it!

Lee1968UK

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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 03:26:36 PM »
You say the weak link in the pilot tranny is the slipper clutch when you get up around 100 bhp, have you had any problems with the splines on the inner drive shaft cups where they go in to the tranny?

The person i bought one of my standard pilots off got me worried when he  showed me loads of damaged inner cup splines and  tubes from the tranny with internal splines, from pilots used for corporate events and RESTRICTED TO HALF THROTTLE ! and these parts are not cheap  :cry:

Back to the gator tranny the gear ratio is 15.5 to 1 in both forward and reverse and the pilot tranny is you say 10.8 to 1 maybe different size cvt, higher reving engine, or bigger wheels and tyres, or a combination of these could correct the overall gearing.
Still not sure if the gator tranny can cope with big bhp or if the brakes would be up to it, by the way the tranny is called a tuff torq by kanzaki.

ludedude

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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 03:32:42 PM »
Quote from: "Lee1968UK"
You say the weak link in the pilot tranny is the slipper clutch when you get up around 100 bhp, have you had any problems with the splines on the inner drive shaft cups where they go in to the tranny?

The person i bought one of my standard pilots off got me worried when he  showed me loads of damaged inner cup splines and  tubes from the tranny with internal splines, from pilots used for corporate events and RESTRICTED TO HALF THROTTLE ! and these parts are not cheap  :cry:


When I replaced my original Axles last year...the internal splines on the tranny were fine, the CV stb splines were worn and rusted however. That's strange to have damaged ones from stcok pilots  :shock:  :?

Lee1968UK

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 04:30:16 PM »
These pilots were used on a daily basis and i guess washed quite regular i wonder if the damage was caused by as you say rust eating away at the splines to the point of the shaft starting to spin in the tranny.
Do you expect to have any problems with your splines when you get your rotax engined pilot running?
By the way my bike in the background is a 98 yz 250 2 stroke.

Moskito

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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 04:38:08 PM »
Quote from: "Lee1968UK"
You say the weak link in the pilot tranny is the slipper clutch when you get up around 100 bhp, have you had any problems with the splines on the inner drive shaft cups where they go in to the tranny?

The person i bought one of my standard pilots off got me worried when he  showed me loads of damaged inner cup splines and  tubes from the tranny with internal splines, from pilots used for corporate events and RESTRICTED TO HALF THROTTLE ! and these parts are not cheap  :cry:
Interesting.
Usually the inner CV failure is shock related - snap.  They like to break off right where the stub goes into the tranny.  If you bend a link arm, it effectively shortens the suspension and will pull the axle in - this can cause binding at full travel and that can break them too.

Did these Pilots run in wet/muddy conditions or were they pressure washed often?  Water getting into the spined area could cause corrosion.  Maybe something in the dirt was caustic to the metal?   - just throwing out thoughts.

It's not uncommon for an older (well used) Pilot to have some worn spines - usually due to lack of lubrication.

If the things still fit, fairly well, lube the snot out of them and run them.  It's going to take a lot of wear to deplete the spines to the point of no longer having the ability to transfer power an start slipping.  (if you can get the old, worn out pieces you described DO SO!!!)

Quote from: "Lee1968UK"
Back to the gator tranny the gear ratio is 15.5 to 1 in both forward and reverse and the pilot tranny is you say 10.8 to 1 maybe different size cvt, higher reving engine, or bigger wheels and tyres, or a combination of these could correct the overall gearing.
Still not sure if the gator tranny can cope with big bhp or if the brakes would be up to it, by the way the tranny is called a tuff torq by kanzaki.


It's a burly item - I'll go out on a limb and say it's gonna handle the abuse.  Those output stubs look damn stout.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 04:49:14 PM »
Quote from: "Lee1968UK"
Do you expect to have any problems with your splines when you get your rotax engined pilot running?


I don't expect to, they're new and should hold up fine <fingers crossed>

PS The engine I'm putting in is a Suzuki EFI engine from an Arctic Cat Snowmobile  :P

Lee1968UK

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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 01:34:34 PM »
I had the damaged inner cv,s with a load of spares i got with one of my pilots.

034 is a new part compair it to 033 as you can see the splines are past there best. must of cost a fortune to replace this lot.

Is it best to grease these splines from new or use some sort of shaft retainer?