Author Topic: 600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion  (Read 61212 times)

ludedude

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2006, 07:28:06 AM »
Well what a dump of snow we got! 2' of powder now! :shock:  :lol:  :lol:

Fixed up the engine mounts and installed the engine back into the sled yesterday. Man that machining centre's coming in handy! Had to make a new tensioner mounting bolt up and thread another mount and a bolt...SOOOO, much easier on that machine then by hand.

WELL...got the engine in. 3 pulls ad it springs to life, gotta like that! Still in coveralls, no gloves or helmet, I take it for a short rip to see how it responds. Well I must have grabbed a bit of dirt on the shoulder or some hard pack, becuase when I cracked it, she lifted the front end! All I can say is

WOW


That things got some get up & go. 60mph comes like nothing!

Got suited up, hit the neighbors place, got his 670 Rotax and we went for a couple hours. What a blast.

Tiring, breaking trail....but ohhhhhh so fun. My legs are aching this morning. Get 'er up on plane and it's just like surfin'....or so I imagine, as I've never surfed LOL. But just body weight change from side to side (while standing) and you're carving out wicked banked "S's" in the snow. You can hear the track spinning wildly beneath you, fighting to grab something for traction but kust ends up grabbing more "fluff" and throwing it 20' out the back. Let off and the front dives into the snow, showering you with a spray of the white stuff.

Need a paddle track for snow like that.

On a side note....from word of mouth, it seems that the dealer let the sled go cheap as they thought it had lower end issues, they heard some knocking, so I've been told. Judging by the shape of the mounts...I know where the knocking came from LOL. One had worn a hole twice the size of the bolt into the frame. The tensioner bolt was in busted, and another mount was just sitting in the frame (bolted to the engine, but not the frame)  :shock: I heard no bad noises last night, she worked like a charm. Easy to start, 90% of the time it was 1 pull, and easy pull at that, while sitting on the machine!  :) What a difference over trying to pull the 500 setup!!!! LOL

I think the only thing I need to do is adjust the throttle cable, too much tension, causing  it to idle high. Other than that......time to go again.....rain's supposed to come Friday night/Saturday  :x

That powerplant's gonna ROCK in the pilot!!!!

ludedude

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2006, 06:15:20 PM »
Did a bit of playing around yesterday. Decided to make rough mounts up first, get it fitted, then make a keeper set of stronger/cleaner mounts/hardware.

Decided to remove the upper cage to save my head while continually climbing in and out...looks like some weird moon vehicle now!


Final mounts will have rubber mounts in front like the pilot, but for now....nuts will do ;) Hoping to use the stock engine/tranny mount plates without modifiaction. I put one pipe under the engine plate for a bolt to pass through for the lower original pilot engie bolt, and plan to fab in mounts on top of the plate to the middle oringal pilot engine bolt.

Playing with Moskito's idea of the clutch support, coming off the mid engine bolt, but it's going to be tight! And that clutch...man it's big!

Question...how far out do you think the driven could be mounted off of the tranny if supported like in Moskito's DezTaz? I'd like to center the engine if possible, and have to allow room for the clutch to shift all the way out, and not have to cut off the battery mount....I have to get the engine back in there to see how far it has to move out....

Ozpilot

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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2006, 02:24:34 PM »
It's hard to say how far out you can put the driven.  I think I'd set it up exactly where I wanted it and then see how it needs to be supported.  When I  do a conversion I try to put things where I want them rather than working around what's there.  I know that gets harder when you are also trying to do a "bolt in" conversion.

I could only find a thumbnail of the pic - I couldn't really see much.

Moskito

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2006, 07:02:49 PM »
Lude,
You might try giving Neil a call and asking him about the Tazcar they made that had dual rear discs on the tranny.  I want to say it was one of the Honda powered cars - one set up for off road, not the dunes, that they ran this setup on.

The driven clutch was moved way out on the shaft so it would clear the rotor when it was fully open.

I wish I could remember what they did for a tranny input shaft support on that one.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2006, 09:18:19 AM »
I actually just talked with Neil..before I read your posts...had to order a 500 pipe as Power Pros said they don't make them anymore  :roll:

I asked Neil a bit about sled transplants. They offset the engines and felt no adverse effects of the engine to one side, and they used the stock driven as is, just beefed up the slipper clutch.

That Arctic Cat drive is BIG! I think the belt would rub the CV boot  :shock:

I headed back out to the shop and I'm going to look at leaving the drive on, and stock location....we'll see ;)

Ozpilot

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2006, 05:48:49 PM »
I was really happy to see you were going to use the Arctic driven.  Last trip out on the two seater I was playing with the clutches a little (more) and I am really coming to appreciate the difference you get by changing the helix angle (not to mention the advantages of rollers).  I really think this is a key area in tuning clutches and I think it would be a huge advantage if you can use the arctic cat driven.  It also lets you use much better belts.  I know the ATVR guys have done plenty and really know their stuff but I'd be looking for advantages like using a better driven and better belts if I was using a 600EFI.

It also seems to me that it can only be an advantage to have a machine that is as balanced side to side as possible.

ludedude

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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2006, 06:46:07 PM »
Yeah...I liked the idea of the Arctic driven too,  but I think it's too big.

Maybe have to look into this again

Moskito

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600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2006, 08:31:30 PM »
Drop the AC driven - not worth the time and effort in a car.  They have a very bad habit of snapping off the three towers that hold the thing together.

I finally decided to toss the last one and change the driven unit to a TEAM clutch - in fact, I have the new clutch in the truck (just came back from Phoenix with it) - will go on the Dez here very soon.

ATV's been using the TEAM clutches on all the Tazcars for a couple years now - with no problems - the thing is damn near bullet proof and what's really sweet about them is that the rollers and helix are sealed inside the clutch body.

They are about as simple as you can get.

They use two rollers - big beefy things that look like they're made of phenolic or something like it.  The rollers are on a piece that has internal spines and slides down over the main shaft of the clutch body (internally).  This is how the helix drives the clutch.

Under this is the spring that supplies belt pressure - just a plain spring.  There is no torsional tension on the spring like a Cat clutch either.

The helix seals the clutch when installed and is about 5" in diam and about .300" (guessing) thick.  It has two pairs of channels (set 90 degrees to each other) and the rollers ride inside these channels - so it loads one side during acceleration, the other during deceleration.  No twisting spring motion needed (less friction).

The helix ramp has two settings - put it on one way, and you get one type of ramp, take it off, turn it 90 degrees, put it back on the rollers and now you have another ramp. - I think mine is 56-42 and 56-44...

The helix is a monster piece compared to the AC clutch too.

There really isn't anything that can break or snap from landing with the power on - which is what kills the AC clutch.

I'd take pix of the insides, but it's already assembled.  James said that I want to change the bolts that hold it all together with a different type before I install it, so I'll try to remember to snap some pix. - bolts are counter sunk and use an allen wrench - was informed that these like to stick and are a biatch to remove after the clutch has been run.  Not sure what he said to change them too....  gotta make a phone call.  :?
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

Ozpilot

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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2006, 11:11:14 PM »
I agree.  TEAM seem to be the clutch everybody is going to.  And the newest one is supposed to be 1 lb lighter than the old one (you can pick the old ones up cheap on ebay sometimes).  I've been planning on going over to TEAM when I need a new clutch but I haven't been able to destroy the one I have yet!  The one on the two seater is a bearcat clutch (so it's a bit bigger than the others) and it is as good as the day I got the thing.  I must say I'm pretty careful about not landing with power on since I saw what the Dez did - but I'm on my third Comet 108EXP (which is almost worn out) and the secondary isn't showing any signs of wear (and there are no cracks near the towers - I've been checking!).

Richard - if you get a chance, could you measure the outside diameter of the TEAM and, if it's relatively easy, the angle of the faces?  I'd like to see what difference it will make to my gearing and I'm curious what angle they run on the faces.  I'm not sure whether they run the OEM angles (which are different for SkiDoo and Arctic Cat) or whether they produce all TEAM clutches with the same angles.  It would be good if I can use an Arctic Cat TEAM secondary as it will fit right on but if the face angles are different on the SkiDoo TEAM secondaries I will have to change to that when I start using the TRA clutches I have (and I will have to modify something as the SkiDoos use a spline for the secondary shaft).  I assume you got an Arctic Cat clutch (green)?

ludedude

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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2006, 06:24:31 AM »
Do the TEAM clutches come in different diameters? The guys that make the hyper-lite would make one for the pilot, splined and all, but the first few would  be brutal expensive because they'd have to purchase a boring bar for the splines. That was over a year ago, I think they even had a driven clutch in hand from someone already.

More info on TEAM clutches please  :P

Moskito

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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2006, 07:23:35 AM »
Quote from: "Ozpilot"
Richard - if you get a chance, could you measure the outside diameter of the TEAM and, if it's relatively easy, the angle of the faces?  I assume you got an Arctic Cat clutch (green)?

No, I have a red one - not sure what it goes on.

The OD of the clutch is 270 mm. (10.629")

Face Angle - 15 degrees - see pic below to reference the number.

Quote from: "ludedude"
Do the TEAM clutches come in different diameters? The guys that make the hyper-lite would make one for the pilot, splined and all, but the first few would  be brutal expensive because they'd have to purchase a boring bar for the splines. That was over a year ago, I think they even had a driven clutch in hand from someone already.

More info on TEAM clutches please  :P

I don't have any info on the Team clutches other than:  I have one, ATV uses them and they seem to be pretty bullet proof.  I'm pretty much ignorant about them otherwise.

The rollers are 23mm in diameter.

The helix I have in it has two ramps - 56-44 and 56-46.  (I was going by memory with the last numbers)  Neil said this would be a good starting point for the Dez's new drive train - educated guess by him.  We'll see how close he got.

You can adjust the clutch for belt width by a bolt on the outer side of the clutch.  It screws against a large washer that the spring rides on.  Screw the bolt in for wider belts, out for narrower belts.

I was wrong about the bolts that need to be replaced.  They are not allen key driven - they are Torx - that explains why James said they need to be replaced - with allen key.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2006, 08:10:51 AM »
Thanks....google here I come!

Ozpilot

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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2006, 03:50:11 PM »
Red is Polaris.  They are used a lot ... you may have noticed the Redlinie setup in the picture I posted earlier in this thread has a red TEAM driven and I noticed in a Sand Sports magazine that a Taz with a V Tec engine that was at the Sandsports show last Septemebr had a red TEAM driven.  I've also seen them used by Olav Aaen a lot - including (I'm pretty sure) on the car that runs the V4.  Aaen likes Polaris stuff!

I'm pretty sure I've found my new clutch - 15 degrees is what I need (I had hoped for 14.5 and many clutches are closer to 13).  I think Polaris runs an angle close to that OEM - as does SkiDoo - so I need that angle to run with the TRA primary.  And I'm pretty sure the Polaris mounts on the same 1 inch shaft with a key as does the Arctic Cat (and now I'm even surer of this because it wouldn't fit straight onto the Dez if that was not the case - and you would have mentioned something if that were the case).  I just have to test the two seater with a regular Arctic Cat clutch (which is also 270mm diameter) so I can make sure the gearing won't be a hassel.

I would have liked to use a yellow one (SkiDoo) ... maybe I can paint a red one yellow!

Lude - I don't think you'll find them in different daimeters - Moskito's Polaris TEAM is 270mm, OEM Arctic Cat (all except Bearcat) are 10 5/8" which is 271mm and SkiDoo OEM is (from what I have read) 10 11/16 which is about 272.5mm.  The only other TEAM secondary is made for a Yamaha and I don't know anything about the diameters but I'm thinking there isn't likely to be a big difference (does anybody know?)

Is there any way you can fit one of these in the Pilot?  I don't suppose the SkiDoo spline is anything like the Pilot spline?  Does moving it out from the gearbox help it clear the CV?  


[I wonder if I'll get picked up for starting a sentence with "And"?]

artoux

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2006, 04:51:05 PM »
Guru,
  Glad to hear that you took the beast foir a spin and that it is all that it can be.  If it can be done you'll do it.  have fun with it and still keepusd informed.  You have one of the Baddest Pilotrs on earth my friend.
  Chuck-Raptorman

ludedude

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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2006, 08:03:15 PM »
Oz,

They may not have them, I hoping they do, or that they'll make them...if not then I go back to hyper-lite, they would make one to fit the pilot....just have to hit them on their off season.

Moving it out doesn't help to clear the CV. Moving it out to the battery mouting plate still leaves the inner (moveable side) over the CV.

Artoux,

Guru....hardly LOL....Notice Moskito has more wrenches than me  :P )Probably does in reality too  :P  :P) May have to set Oz up with a few of his own too.

Got a guy lined up to do the tank and exhaust, used to work at Pratt with me and did repair welds on gearbox cases for aircraft, best welder I've seen!

I need to get my hands on an electric start kit to make sure I have room for that (depending on price, I may keep it or not, it starts so easy by hand LOL). If I install a electric starter on it I may remove the pull start to make it narrower. Should be able to wrap an emergency pull start strap on the drive clutch as backup.