Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum

General Category => Conversions and Hybrids => Honda Pilot FL400R conversion - 600 EFI LT build up => Topic started by: Odyknuck on January 09, 2007, 09:06:55 AM

Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 09, 2007, 09:06:55 AM
Brian, Whats happening with the project? Was wondering what you finally did with the clutchs. Have you tried to use the Pilot driven etc. Is the AC driven worth the effort.
Title: Clutchs
Post by: Odyknuck on January 09, 2007, 10:25:13 AM
Brian, I am not granted access to reply to your response to my question. So I will do it here. Dave S. and I are doing Rotax 700 twin transplants and are in the R&D stage. We are contemplating what clutch system to use. I hear pros and cons about using the stock driven versus the AC or Ski-doo etc. My concern with your setup is it breaking (how much ride time on your setup). and the clearances required. We are considering just making new shafts to replace the stock one if we go that route.  We are also considering using VW 930 CVs to handle the additional HP and to have easy access to rebuild parts for them. This also has bearing on the clearance issues with a sled clutch. You had mentioned  That Neil from ATVR used the stock Pilot driven. What was his take on that. Another clutch I'm considering is the Team unit. It appears to be a much better setup than the AC. and its a smaller diameter.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 09, 2007, 11:39:28 AM
I've got aboout 30 hrs on my setup without a clutch support,which I have figured out, just not gotten around to making. With that I can't see it breaking at all, especially how it's run so far.

I think I'm near ideal for the EFI engine I picked....I can keep the pull start as is, and JUST get it off without removing the engine...and the drive clutch has enough room for belt changes between it and the frame. My clutch support will incorporate a torque rod setup which I believe is a needed addition (the sleds use them too). My belt JUST slips on the driven between it and the CV. I made up an allen bolt slider pin for the upper caliper bolt as the driven would hit it when fully opened and clearanced the rear of the driven a bit as well. With where my engine sits,I needed the driven spaced out where it is, as such, my engine is centered for balance side to side and I can clear the CV and caliper. I forget for sure Neils thinking on the stock driven, I belive they went that route to ease the install. My rebuilt I am assured will handle well above 100hp...the slipper clutch is my weak link..and I'll leave it as is ;)

The clutching is way off....that is toomake use of the full rpm/throttle range. In the sled I could keep it pinned and it wouldn't reach max rpm/cutoff....in the pilot I have to back out of the throttle to about 2/3 of WOT once I hit ~8200 rpm. If I can reach peak without it going over (then it drops to about 7500rpm, before coming back into power) my max speed is about the same as it was with the CR500 top end...and that's fine with me too.

Pesonally I would stray from the pilot driven, go to something else. For parts and for the adjustability, same reasons I was given when I was contemplating too ;)

With my install the only frame mods I did were remove the battery tray and mounts (relocated it) added rad brackets and an exhaust mount, everything else is bolt in ;)  8)
Title: Transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 09, 2007, 01:04:04 PM
I've got aboout 30 hrs on my setup without a clutch support,which I have figured out, just not gotten around to making. With that I can't see it breaking at all, especially how it's run so far.
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With the shaft being extended like you have it I would think putting a bearing on the trans side of the clutch (close to the clutch) would work just as well as on the outside. That way you could attach it direct to the trans with out to much effort. Then you would not have to be concerned about changing the belt and having clearence on the frame side.
Do you have any extra bad Pilot clutchs? If I deside to go the adapter route I really dont want to destry a good Pilot clutch.
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My support is going on the tranny side ;) I don't have any extra pilot drivens right now...I want to hold onto what I have.

I think I'm near ideal for the EFI engine I picked....I can keep the pull start as is, and JUST get it off without removing the engine...and the drive clutch has enough room for belt changes between it and the frame. My clutch support will incorporate a torque rod setup which I believe is a needed addition (the sleds use them too).
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Is you end up solid mounting the trans to the frame and rubber mout the engine. I would think that making both work as a unit would be a better approch. Either solid mount both or rubber mount both. I like the way the stock pilot is set up. It inheritly has the torque plate build in.
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Yeah I guess I could easily replace my rear mount with a solid one and eliminate the torque rod...but it's going to be right there anyhow when I add in the clutch support.


My belt JUST slips on the driven between it and the CV. I made up an allen bolt slider pin for the upper caliper bolt as the driven would hit it when fully opened and clearanced the rear of the driven a bit as well. With where my engine sits,I needed the driven spaced out where it is, as such, my engine is centered for balance side to side and I can clear the
CV and caliper.
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Have you looked at using a Team clutch. I believe they are of a smaller diameter (10 1/2") than the AC.

I haven't..I may in the future,,but what I have works fine now
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I forget for sure Neils thinking on the stock driven, I belive they went that route to ease the install. My rebuilt I am assured will handle well above 100hp...the slipper clutch is my weak link..and I'll leave it as is  
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I talked with Neil today and that was his take on it. He did mention that he was using less horse power motors than I am. He also mentioned about beefing up the slippers to handle the additional HP. A thin washer under each bolt would do the trick.
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The clutching is way off....that is too make use of the full rpm/throttle range. In the sled I could keep it pinned and it wouldn't reach max rpm/cutoff....in the pilot I have to back out of the throttle to about 2/3 of WOT once I hit ~8200 rpm. If I can reach peak without it going over (then it drops to about 7500rpm, before coming back into power) my max speed is about the same as it was with the CR500 top end...and that's fine with me too.
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Im assumming your talking about the EFI Rev limiter? Where you running a Rev limiter with the CR500? What RPM did the CR500 max out at.

I forget :oops:! ~8000rpm?  Just was informed the AC ECU has no rev limiter...hmmmmmm
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Pesonally I would stray from the pilot driven, go to something else. For parts and for the adjustability, same reasons I was given when I was contemplating too  
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I tend to agree, however better to explore all the options considering the  additional work required to make a non stock one work. I do want to be able to make adjustments to both clutchs. It was the same limitation with the Power block and 102C clutchs using the stock driven. You really never knew the potensial of the setup with out being able to adjust the driven.
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With my install the only frame mods I did were remove the battery tray and mounts (relocated it) added rad brackets and an exhaust mount, everything else is bolt in  
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Bolt in is Good lol.

Yup..tank, engine and exhaust can be out in under an hour ;)
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 09, 2007, 02:32:30 PM
my replies in red ;)
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 12, 2007, 09:26:15 AM
got it together yesterday and went for a drive last night!!  :shock:  :!:  :shock:  :shock:  WoooHOO! What a blast!, even have the electric start working.....well....had...lost the gear of the starter  :twisted:  I had made a snap ring up as the kit didn't have one in it....guess it wasn't good enough  :P  Ah well...found another one locally so I should have it tonight or tomrrow...Ted's coming in tomorrow ;) Now to find some springs and weights to play with :)

Gary...look at the electric start from a '96 Jag....I used one from a '99 ZRT600 (triple - got a good deal). I had to shorten the aluminum cross rod...but the jag has a one piece starter.....oh forgot.....yours has the starter with it...duh-oh!  :lol:
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 12, 2007, 09:38:43 AM
Glad to here you got it running. Im looking for a starter setup for a Rotax 700 if you run into one.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: nuke em on January 12, 2007, 09:50:40 AM
I have the starter, but its always good to have a backup plan ready. I am rereading your entire buildup(its alot too) so i will be ready. I was going to start the install this weekend but its in the negative degrees here all weekend so it may be a little longer. With the EFI engine, I should be able to have more tilt angle on the engine to leave more room for the tranny crossmounts and exhaust turn out with getting too close to the seat. I still can not deside what engine cradle design to go with. I have several rolling around in my little brain. LOL

I got a few go fast goodies for the 86 250R trike too. CT Racing rev ported jug, milled head, Paul turner rev pipe, ect. Probably going to be in a cast soon too!
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 12, 2007, 10:28:12 AM
Looks like you can use duals on the EFI ;) Blackmagic makes a set and a ECU chip to match  :P  That'll allow more options for the pipe routing. I think I'll go that route...mine work's I just don't like the looks and its too close to the seat  :roll:
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: nuke em on January 12, 2007, 11:06:55 AM
Thanks for the tip Brian. I found thier website and I am doing the homework now.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 12, 2007, 02:26:43 PM
I'm trying to pick up a set of duals now via Ebay and/or arcticchat.com I'll let you know the dimensions if/when I get a set. I may just measure and relist them....depends on how many changes they'd need to fit nicely. What do you have planned for the exhaust? Make your own or modify the stock one?
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: nuke em on January 12, 2007, 04:09:50 PM
I seen a set on Ebay today for around $350. The distance from the jug to where they first turn looks like near 12 inches(sorry don't know metric). They would have to be modified before I could use them. I plan on running the stock exhaust system with minimal modifications for now then add twins later if it doesn't go fast enough for me.  I have a twin nitrous setup for it, if i need a little more ummph at the end of a drag race. LOL

Do you sell shock covers in your store?
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 18, 2007, 09:50:48 AM
I got the Black Magic pipes and a chip for them on the way ;) Once I get them and look at them I will decide wether to cut and fit them or measure them to copy the dimensions to create a set of duals that will fit and relist them.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: FL670R on January 19, 2007, 11:03:30 AM
So Brian what did you end up doing with the electrical...

I read thru the ebay listing and see that you have it hooked up with electric start.
(Did you end up mounting the starter under the engine ?)

What exactually are you calling the "charging diode" ?
Are you referring to the Regulator/Rectifier thats included with the electric start kit ?

Do you have or can you make a wiring diagram of your electrical setup ?

I was planning the same route AC for lights and EGT guages and DC to charge battery witch really only powers electric start and in my case a Drak radiator Fan.

Did you use the FL400 regulator at all ?
Did you ever find out if the yellow from the Cat Stator works to power the FL400 lights via the stock regulator ?
Did it work with just two yellows or did you add the third ?

Sorry for all the questions I'm about to rewire the FL670 again and thought your insight may help speed me along...

Later
Dennis
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 19, 2007, 11:11:17 AM
The best thing to do is to buy the Ski-doo Starter style regulator that gives you the 12 VDC for the battery charging. I picked one up for my 700 Retrofit for about $30.00.  You could then eliminate the Pilot Regulator and just tie the Ski-doo to the wire that normally is used by the Pilot Reg and have charging and system DC with out having to rewire much at all.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 19, 2007, 11:27:19 AM
I could not get the pilot regulator to give me enough DC output and AllI could figure was that its because the 600 has a single phase AC and the pilot's regualtor is a 3 phase setup.

The charging diode is included in the starter kits wiring harness, it just clips the AC and charges the battery, it seems to do fine with keeping up to the needs of the starter and fan.

For wiring all I did was remove the key switch of the pilot and used the kits starter key switch. I used the wires there to feed back to the rear of the pilot....a red wire for for the on postion powers the fan through the pilots fuse box, so when the key is on, the fan is on..I can turn the key off to turn the fan off if I want as the kill switch is needed to kill the engine, the key does nothing, only starts and controls the fan. The red/white wire I used to trigger the starter relay, so from the fuse box it goes to the relay. I used the black and brown and black and white wires to kill the engine by tying them into the coil wires on the sled engine. I wanted to use the pilots kill switch and it's normally closed to run and the sled is normally open to run so I went this route. I used the AC regualtor left in it where it's supposed to go, then tied it into the fuse box for the lighing circuit black/brown I think...this is all from memory :P If you need more clairifaction let me know and I'll do up a schematic and make sure I get the wire colors right.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 19, 2007, 11:31:14 AM
Quote from: "Odyknuck"
The best thing to do is to buy the Ski-doo Starter style regulator that gives you the 12 VDC for the battery charging. I picked one up for my 700 Retrofit for about $30.00.  You could then eliminate the Pilot Regulator and just tie the Ski-doo to the wire that normally is used by the Pilot Reg and have charging and system DC with out having to rewire much at all.


Do you know what DC output the regulator will put out? I think the sleds still run their lights in AC, so I'm wondering if it will handle being fed by the lighting coils full output, or if they only handle a small load for charging. The stator on my AC engine has separate coils for each function and the ones that need DC are converted individually. There's one for the injectors, one for the fuel pump, one for the ECU, and the AC lighting coils
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: FL670R on January 19, 2007, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: "ludedude"
For wiring all I did was remove the key switch of the pilot and used the kits starter key switch. I used the wires there to feed back to the rear of the pilot....a red wire for for the on postion powers the fan through the pilots fuse box, so when the key is on, the fan is on..I can turn the key off to turn the fan off if I want as the kill switch is needed to kill the engine, the key does nothing, only starts and controls the fan. The red/white wire I used to trigger the starter relay, so from the fuse box it goes to the relay. I used the black and brown and black and white wires to kill the engine by tying them into the coil wires on the sled engine. I wanted to use the pilots kill switch and it's normally closed to run and the sled is normally open to run so I went this route. I used the AC regualtor left in it where it's supposed to go, then tied it into the fuse box for the lighing circuit black/brown I think...this is all from memory :P If you need more clairifaction let me know and I'll do up a schematic and make sure I get the wire colors right.


Cool looks like we did the same thing only reversed...

I use the kill switch on the steering wheel to only turn on and off my fan...
I use the key to allow the engine to run or not...

Only problem as you stated is that Honda and Arctic Cat use different means to trigger a kill (open vs closed) so I have to turn the key to off start the motor and on to kill it...
(I'd guess you have to do the same with the kill switch right - why did you switch to the AC Key ?)

So did you wire your starter hot to the start button reguardless of the key and kill switch positions ?

I previously bought a skidoo rectifier from ebay but upon installing it last fall I could not get any DC current out of it - maybe it was shot....

I have another one from the electric start kit - two AC yellows going in 1 red DC comming out.

I guess I will hook the red thru a fuse to the battery my only concern was that it will be putting a full 12 VDC to the battery at all times even if the battery is fully charged ?

Won't that over charge the battery ?

Dennis
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 19, 2007, 01:42:58 PM
FL670 the Regulator will  only charge the battery when needed. By connecting it to the Black wire (Reg enable) and the Red (Charge rate) you should be OK. It sounds like the Regulator you have left does not have an enable wire on it. I can only assume its designed to not bleed back thru it and drain the battery when motor is not running. If not you will need to tie the charging wire into your ignition switch to only be active with the switch on.

Ludedude just for clarification your saying that you have mutipal coils with individual Regulators on the Artic Cat. Do you have the Artic Cat Schematic that you could post.  I would think typically (at least on a carberated Model sled) that the Sled Regulator would be enough to handle the required current for the lights and DC devices. Typically sleds dont have the Electric start so most of them come standard with AC lighting power. You would still need the Regulator for maintaning the proper voltage to the lights so you would not burn them up at higher RPMs and be to dim at low RPMs. It would make sense that the Electric start version would be using the same AC regulation circuit with the addition of a rectifier to convert to 12 VDC with a battery charging circuit. Please note I have not tested any of my comments  in real life.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: FL670R on January 19, 2007, 01:55:57 PM
OdyKnuck

Mutipal ->multiple ?

Yea switching out the regulator for a regulator/rectifier is all you need to do when you add the electric start kit to a skidoo (per the skidoo instructions)

The regulated AC still powers the lights and warmers, ect
DC only for battery and battery only for starting...

The regulator/rectifier is grounded so I guess it will not overcharge the battery.  (any way to test bleed back ?)

Lude - Just had a thought I bet you switched the key so that you could use the start position of the key to trigger the electric start correct ?
If so you should be able to use the same key to kill the motor since I assume (I know never good) that AC switch closes the circuit (thus killing the motor) when it is off - oppisite the Pilot which is open to kill

correct ?
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 19, 2007, 08:48:36 PM
OK here goes, trying to get all the questions ;)

I used the Arctic Cat key that came with the kit becuase it has the start position on it, yes, correct, and I plan to use the pilot's starter button for my PTT button for 2-way communication, but that's another story  :P

I use the kill switch on the pilot, but I wired it into the coil wire so it works as the pilot kill switch should...there's something wrong with my ECU I think, it won't kill the engine by connect the brown and purple wires together anymore as it used to  :roll:  hence the kill switch wired into the coil wiring, I did have to have the kill switch to off to run  :P   and used the pilot key for the fan only. The hot is wired to the key switch, independant of the kill switch.

Yes the stator on the Arctic Cat contains various coils for each electrical need...you can't use a carb'd engine staor on an EFI engine because the stator does not have the fuel pump and injector coils ;) The regualtors are somewhere I dunno where..in with the stator or in the ECU. The Arctic Cat does have a voltage regulator on the AC lighting/accessory output. The electric start kit for the Cat sled ties into this, and uses a diode to charge the battery, and the battery runs the starter. The lights on sleds are very dim at idle/low rpm's at least mine an my buddy's 670 ran like that.

Did I miss anything ?  :P
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 23, 2007, 10:23:02 AM
I think you covered it. I was looking at the Pilot Schematic and the Timer module is part of the lighting circuit and requires DC. Have isolated that section from the AC circuit.  Also was reviewing clutching again. I noticed that the Arctic cat and or the Ski doo driven appears to have a limited shift range. It would seem that the  Pilot driven would give you a  better top end with the smaller OD and the ability to shift down into the clutch farther. Did you and Dennis take that into consideration. Personally I would think if your going thru the trouble of the high HP motor you would want it to have a faster top end. What is the drive ratio of a sled chain box?
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 23, 2007, 10:44:11 AM
Quote from: "Odyknuck"
I think you covered it. I was looking at the Pilot Schematic and the Timer module is part of the lighting circuit and requires DC. Have isolated that section from the AC circuit.  Also was reviewing clutching again. I noticed that the Arctic cat and or the Ski doo driven appears to have a limited shift range. It would seem that the  Pilot driven would give you a  better top end with the smaller OD and the ability to shift down into the clutch farther. Did you and Dennis take that into consideration. Personally I would think if your going thru the trouble of the high HP motor you would want it to have a faster top end. What is the drive ratio of a sled chain box?


Yes I removed the timer from my circuit ;)

I have not measured the small (opened) diameters of the two, I don't need to go any faster, I just want to get up to speed faster ;) 60/65 mph is fast enough on ATV tires for me ;)
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: Odyknuck on January 24, 2007, 07:43:57 AM
Forgot about the sled gear box ratio. Do you know what it is.
Title: Whats the latest on the 600EFI transplant
Post by: ludedude on January 24, 2007, 08:43:42 AM
no...but I'll see if it's in the manual