Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum
General Category => Conversions and Hybrids => Honda Pilot FL400R conversion - 600 EFI LT build up => Topic started by: ludedude on January 18, 2006, 11:10:39 AM
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This will be the first entry into my blog for the 600 EFI LT project. Just some pictures to start.
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Wish I'd known you were looking for a 600 twin EFI - I have an Arctic Cat sitting on a shelf. It has EVERYTHING needed to make it run including a starter. When I stripped the sled, I took every wire, hose and anything else that was attached to the engine. I also have a chip and the stock air box for it too....
Anyone interested???
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yup...got another one here to do if this works out well :)
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Well I pulled the engine from the sled, got pissed off that there's no snow here...and curious to see how it would fit in the pilot.Turns out it was a good idea, at least one of the engine mounts in the sled frame needs repairing.
The stock tank's not going to fit, the engine's too wide. It wil be close if I move the engine over and move the driven clutch over to match it. This wouyld mean a longer driven final shaft, and the need for support on the end. What I'm thinking is making up a new, longer final shaft for the driven, that will accept the Arctic Cat driven clutch. Longer so that I can better center the engine in the frame. Instead of a bolt threading into the center of the sahft to hold the clutch on ,I was thinking oof making up a shaft with a threaded end (same as the bolt) with flats on it for a wrench to tighten the shaft/clutch down. The end of this shaft will house a pillowblock bearing mounted on a brace, so as to support the extended shaft and increase in power transfer the shaft will see.
I laid a plate in the engine bay, and sat the engine on this to get an idea of how it will sit. I will have to tilt the engine a bit more than it was in the sled to have the throttle bodies/air intake path clear the transmission. I plan to try and make mounts into the stock front pilot engine mount locations, attach to the plate, and attach to similiar brakets as the pilot uses on the transmission. The AC engine has the common 4 bolt mounting threaded holes on the bottom of the engine cases, even though they are not used in mounting this engine into the ZR frame. I hope to use these to bolt the AC engine to the mounting plate.
The pipe(s) and the tank should be fun. I have to find out what the criteria is for pipes for the EFI setup, are they more stringent on their design...etc. And whether I'm better off with dual pipes or a 2-into-1. If it's 2-into-1 I'll route them the pilot way and make a tank similiar to the pilot, thought it will need to be narrower at it's base to clear the pull start assembly. If I go duals, I think I'll aim for a fuel tank above the engine, below my re-located rad. But it will have to be an easy out design to gain access to the engine.
Thoughts, suggestions?
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Gonna contact boondockers next week about this unit
ECU (http://www.boondocker.ca/support/downloads/documents/General/Boondocker%20Control%20Box.pdf)
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Got the OK to get setup as a dealer for the Boondocker unit :) Have to send in the paperwork today and go through the formalities.
Hope to make this into an install that I can repeat, and that others can do as well. The boondocker unit is a ECU piggyback unit that allows the addition and subtraction of fuel to the injectors while still maintaing the factory fuel curve and ability to compensate for air pressure and temperature, and engine temperature.
I'll need this because the air/fuel ratio will be bound to change with the different exhaust that will be incorporated to fit the pilot. Push button jetting...ahhh, I like it already :D .
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The end of this shaft will house a pillowblock bearing mounted on a brace, so as to support the extended shaft and increase in power transfer the shaft will see.
Thoughts, suggestions?
Here's a thought on the support shaft for the tranny. - beware, I'm gonna babble.
The Dez, with it's old engine setup, had the tranny mounted under the Arctic Cat engine - the tranny input shaft was supported with a thick walled short, stout tube that came off the chassis. There was very little clearance at full upshift between the belt and the support shaft (and this bit me in Mexico when we modified the tube once ...)
Anyhow, with this idea in mind for the RX1 transplant (http://www.yellowdogracing.com/dezrx1install.htm) I kept the support for the input shaft between the clutches for easy and speedy belt changes. (Jay supports his from the back of the chassis - you pull a quick pin to rotate the support out of the way - one extra step I was able to remove from the changing process)
What made this setup work for me - and maybe for you with the 600??? - is that the rear engine mounts on the RX1 are supported by one LONG ass bolt that goes though both engine mounting lugs. The long ass bolt has a rounded head with a square underneath the head - no need for a wrench on this end - just for the nut on the other end. Sweet, easy setup.
Now, the next issue with this long ass bolt is that it's too long - in the RX1 sled, it goes through a couple bosses that are about 2" wide each.
Jay cuts this bolt to length, threads the cut end, sticks a nut on the threads and then welds the nut to the end of the shaft. I recently read an article on bolts and decided there was no way I was gonna modify this bolt. Instead, I was gonna use it for support.
What I did was turn down a piece of steel so that a piece of 1.125 x .095 walled tubing would slide over the tube. Next I welded the thick wall tube to the outer side of the engine mount.
The excess bolt would be in this tube. The tube, along with the bolt (which is under tension when torqued down) would act like a large boss for the input shaft support.
The support slides right over this boss and the bearing in the support slided over the end of the input shaft on the tranny.
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The pipe(s) and the tank should be fun. I have to find out what the criteria is for pipes for the EFI setup, are they more stringent on their design...etc. And whether I'm better off with dual pipes or a 2-into-1. If it's 2-into-1 I'll route them the pilot way and make a tank similiar to the pilot, thought it will need to be narrower at it's base to clear the pull start assembly. If I go duals, I think I'll aim for a fuel tank above the engine, below my re-located rad. But it will have to be an easy out design to gain access to the engine.
Thoughts, suggestions?
The AC 600 EFI engine I have uses a single pipe. I was gonna modify it to fit in the single seater that I was gonna make... I figure that the stocker works, the HP is MORE than enough for a small single seater. Less may be more in this instance???
If you can get away with the single pipe, then why not use it? Save some time, space, headaches...
That being said, the Yamaha twin powered Pilots that ATV Racing did a few years back ran dual pipes - they came up over the clutches then turned and went out - like a stock pipe on a Pilot, just two of them.
The trick things were the fuel tanks that they made for those three Pilots. They ran behind the seat, with wings (think of one of those recliner pillows you put on your bed to watch TV) that went around the sides of the seats. The tanks were sort of triangular shaped (from the side view) so they fit under the exhaust pipes, above the frame, behind/around the seat and up against the front of the engine. I believe they were 11 gallons! - then again, ATVR stretched the Pilots 6" right at the roll cage, so there was more room for a tank.
Keep it low and forward if at all possible.
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I just can't let myslef go with a 2 into 1....here's why LOL
I'm an efficiency freak...sort of...I'll work for way too long to make something easier/more efficient/faster for the next time....spend way too much time = the freak part
How the heck does a 2 stroke, twin cylinder, with opposing piston orientations even work, in regards to the expansion chamber...don't the motion of the 2 pistons in opposing directions defeat the stuffing effect of the chamber? And that's why slapping duals onto a stock 2-into-1 setup makes such a difference?
I like the tranny shaft support...I like I like! I was going to use copies of the tranny-engine brackets as part of my engine cradle mount. Use the 3 holes from the tranny side, then down to a engine cradle, then to the front stock engine mounts. Wonder if the middle bolt on the tranny plate will clear the clutch??? HMMMM
OUCH! That tank configuration is hard to visualize...or maybe it's the magic box LOL
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The boondocker unit is a ECU piggyback unit that allows the addition and subtraction of fuel to the injectors while still maintaing the factory fuel curve and ability to compensate for air pressure and temperature, and engine temperature.
I'll need this because the air/fuel ratio will be bound to change with the different exhaust that will be incorporated to fit the pilot. Push button jetting...ahhh, I like it already :D .
I hear that!!
I had to get a Power Commander for the R1 bike to modify the injection curves. I can modify right there on the fly with a small box and buttons or I can d/l - u/l curves via a USB port and a lap top. I think it may modify both the injectors and the ignition curves - full 3-d mapping, as they call it. (gotta read more and talk to Jay - he's done it a bunch)
Pretty amazing when you think about it - from changing out pieces of brass with holes in them to pushing buttons on a black box to change jetting.
I like technology! :cheers:
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two cylinder ski engines are not 100% opposed. They are about 40* less that 180* degrees of each other, hence the vibration they give off. Just like a hardly davidson. Now I can take some pictures of the 2-1 pipe that will out perform most twin pipe ski's :) its all in the scavaging effect. I basically stole the idea off the bombardier team secret squirrel stuff from a ski site. :)
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Cool, yup I'm interested :wink:
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Here are a few pics that may help you think in different directions on the clutch support question. I made up a simple torque rod using some OEM skidoo parts that were not expensive. It seemed to make a fair amount of difference.
The two things it seems to me you need to do are 1. hold the enginie and trans apart (by holding the two clutches apart) and, 2. support the "floating" ends of the shafts. It seems to me that if you used something like the HRD setup with something else like my torque rod or the Redline setup there would be little or no need for anything else.
I like the isolation system Redline uses. I haven't worked out how the drive from the crank to the drive clutch works yet - obviously has some type of rubber in it to absorb vibration and it must deal with the movement of the crank relative to the frame as well. I'm not sure it would be a good idea on my Rotax engines though as Bombardier uses a TRA clutch (which has a fairly high mass) with a rubber "dampner" (spelling?) fitted. But, on an Arctic Cat engine it may be a good idea (not sure you want the extra weight and size in a pilot conversion though).
As I said - these photos are just to help you look at different ideas - I haven't come up with anything I see as a good setup - although I'll think more about it when I change engines in my 2 seater (one day...)
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Lude, I hear what you say about 2 into 1 pipes! I have made plenty of exhaust systems for 2 and 4 strokes and for competition as well as for the road and I could never imagine 2 into 1 expansion chambers could work at all. But, the one on the Drak seems good. They seem very sensitive though. When I spoke to DH at Coal Creek he told me what he had learnt - it will make good sense to you!!
When I bought the 2 seater Alain told me several 2 seaters with the 700 engine melted pistons and nobody could work out why. They run a Dynoport pipe (specially designed for Draks) which (I'm sure, having put them side by side) is identical to that used on the single seaters. However, the Y section is a little different (they are angled up slightly higher as space is not as tight). After many blow-ups, Alain found that lengthening the pipe 12mm where it goes onto the Y section elimated the problem. Talk about touchy!!
I really think 2 pipes has gotta be better than one but if the single is designed well (or well adapted to your machine) I'd give it a try - they actually do work (somehow!?!) and they save a lot of space. Mine doesn't sound bad either!
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Thanks Oz.
If I had more room I'd look into that redline setup. Add a new taper shaft to the crank, move the clutch away from the engine so that there's more room between and make an enclosed belt drive system. Don't think I have room for that.
I need to see if I can pick up an electric start kit for cheap, don't really need it, but want to make sure I leave room so that it can be added.
There's just enough snow down now, with more on the way. Time to fix a couple mounts in the sled and put it back in and see how the engine pulls :)
I need to take some measurements for the mounting holes in the bottom of the engine before it goes back in, and get a rough idea how long the new tranny shaft should be. Then into can go back into the sled for awhile. I'll pull and split the tranny and remove the inout shaft, and make a new one up. With a 1" straight shaft, roughly to length. Thinking I'll make the first one from aluminum just for fitting purposes, make some spacers up, so I can step it out to where needed to align the engine up where I want it in the frame, leaving some room for a few shims on the inside. Then make the final one from a suitable material.
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Well what a dump of snow we got! 2' of powder now! :shock: :lol: :lol:
Fixed up the engine mounts and installed the engine back into the sled yesterday. Man that machining centre's coming in handy! Had to make a new tensioner mounting bolt up and thread another mount and a bolt...SOOOO, much easier on that machine then by hand.
WELL...got the engine in. 3 pulls ad it springs to life, gotta like that! Still in coveralls, no gloves or helmet, I take it for a short rip to see how it responds. Well I must have grabbed a bit of dirt on the shoulder or some hard pack, becuase when I cracked it, she lifted the front end! All I can say is
WOW
That things got some get up & go. 60mph comes like nothing!
Got suited up, hit the neighbors place, got his 670 Rotax and we went for a couple hours. What a blast.
Tiring, breaking trail....but ohhhhhh so fun. My legs are aching this morning. Get 'er up on plane and it's just like surfin'....or so I imagine, as I've never surfed LOL. But just body weight change from side to side (while standing) and you're carving out wicked banked "S's" in the snow. You can hear the track spinning wildly beneath you, fighting to grab something for traction but kust ends up grabbing more "fluff" and throwing it 20' out the back. Let off and the front dives into the snow, showering you with a spray of the white stuff.
Need a paddle track for snow like that.
On a side note....from word of mouth, it seems that the dealer let the sled go cheap as they thought it had lower end issues, they heard some knocking, so I've been told. Judging by the shape of the mounts...I know where the knocking came from LOL. One had worn a hole twice the size of the bolt into the frame. The tensioner bolt was in busted, and another mount was just sitting in the frame (bolted to the engine, but not the frame) :shock: I heard no bad noises last night, she worked like a charm. Easy to start, 90% of the time it was 1 pull, and easy pull at that, while sitting on the machine! :) What a difference over trying to pull the 500 setup!!!! LOL
I think the only thing I need to do is adjust the throttle cable, too much tension, causing it to idle high. Other than that......time to go again.....rain's supposed to come Friday night/Saturday :x
That powerplant's gonna ROCK in the pilot!!!!
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Did a bit of playing around yesterday. Decided to make rough mounts up first, get it fitted, then make a keeper set of stronger/cleaner mounts/hardware.
Decided to remove the upper cage to save my head while continually climbing in and out...looks like some weird moon vehicle now!
(http://p-o-ps.com/pops/album_thumbnail.php?pic_id=71)
Final mounts will have rubber mounts in front like the pilot, but for now....nuts will do ;) Hoping to use the stock engine/tranny mount plates without modifiaction. I put one pipe under the engine plate for a bolt to pass through for the lower original pilot engie bolt, and plan to fab in mounts on top of the plate to the middle oringal pilot engine bolt.
Playing with Moskito's idea of the clutch support, coming off the mid engine bolt, but it's going to be tight! And that clutch...man it's big!
Question...how far out do you think the driven could be mounted off of the tranny if supported like in Moskito's DezTaz? I'd like to center the engine if possible, and have to allow room for the clutch to shift all the way out, and not have to cut off the battery mount....I have to get the engine back in there to see how far it has to move out....
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It's hard to say how far out you can put the driven. I think I'd set it up exactly where I wanted it and then see how it needs to be supported. When I do a conversion I try to put things where I want them rather than working around what's there. I know that gets harder when you are also trying to do a "bolt in" conversion.
I could only find a thumbnail of the pic - I couldn't really see much.
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Lude,
You might try giving Neil a call and asking him about the Tazcar they made that had dual rear discs on the tranny. I want to say it was one of the Honda powered cars - one set up for off road, not the dunes, that they ran this setup on.
The driven clutch was moved way out on the shaft so it would clear the rotor when it was fully open.
I wish I could remember what they did for a tranny input shaft support on that one.
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I actually just talked with Neil..before I read your posts...had to order a 500 pipe as Power Pros said they don't make them anymore :roll:
I asked Neil a bit about sled transplants. They offset the engines and felt no adverse effects of the engine to one side, and they used the stock driven as is, just beefed up the slipper clutch.
That Arctic Cat drive is BIG! I think the belt would rub the CV boot :shock:
I headed back out to the shop and I'm going to look at leaving the drive on, and stock location....we'll see ;)
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I was really happy to see you were going to use the Arctic driven. Last trip out on the two seater I was playing with the clutches a little (more) and I am really coming to appreciate the difference you get by changing the helix angle (not to mention the advantages of rollers). I really think this is a key area in tuning clutches and I think it would be a huge advantage if you can use the arctic cat driven. It also lets you use much better belts. I know the ATVR guys have done plenty and really know their stuff but I'd be looking for advantages like using a better driven and better belts if I was using a 600EFI.
It also seems to me that it can only be an advantage to have a machine that is as balanced side to side as possible.
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Yeah...I liked the idea of the Arctic driven too, but I think it's too big.
Maybe have to look into this again
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Drop the AC driven - not worth the time and effort in a car. They have a very bad habit of snapping off the three towers that hold the thing together.
I finally decided to toss the last one and change the driven unit to a TEAM clutch - in fact, I have the new clutch in the truck (just came back from Phoenix with it) - will go on the Dez here very soon.
ATV's been using the TEAM clutches on all the Tazcars for a couple years now - with no problems - the thing is damn near bullet proof and what's really sweet about them is that the rollers and helix are sealed inside the clutch body.
They are about as simple as you can get.
They use two rollers - big beefy things that look like they're made of phenolic or something like it. The rollers are on a piece that has internal spines and slides down over the main shaft of the clutch body (internally). This is how the helix drives the clutch.
Under this is the spring that supplies belt pressure - just a plain spring. There is no torsional tension on the spring like a Cat clutch either.
The helix seals the clutch when installed and is about 5" in diam and about .300" (guessing) thick. It has two pairs of channels (set 90 degrees to each other) and the rollers ride inside these channels - so it loads one side during acceleration, the other during deceleration. No twisting spring motion needed (less friction).
The helix ramp has two settings - put it on one way, and you get one type of ramp, take it off, turn it 90 degrees, put it back on the rollers and now you have another ramp. - I think mine is 56-42 and 56-44...
The helix is a monster piece compared to the AC clutch too.
There really isn't anything that can break or snap from landing with the power on - which is what kills the AC clutch.
I'd take pix of the insides, but it's already assembled. James said that I want to change the bolts that hold it all together with a different type before I install it, so I'll try to remember to snap some pix. - bolts are counter sunk and use an allen wrench - was informed that these like to stick and are a biatch to remove after the clutch has been run. Not sure what he said to change them too.... gotta make a phone call. :?
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I agree. TEAM seem to be the clutch everybody is going to. And the newest one is supposed to be 1 lb lighter than the old one (you can pick the old ones up cheap on ebay sometimes). I've been planning on going over to TEAM when I need a new clutch but I haven't been able to destroy the one I have yet! The one on the two seater is a bearcat clutch (so it's a bit bigger than the others) and it is as good as the day I got the thing. I must say I'm pretty careful about not landing with power on since I saw what the Dez did - but I'm on my third Comet 108EXP (which is almost worn out) and the secondary isn't showing any signs of wear (and there are no cracks near the towers - I've been checking!).
Richard - if you get a chance, could you measure the outside diameter of the TEAM and, if it's relatively easy, the angle of the faces? I'd like to see what difference it will make to my gearing and I'm curious what angle they run on the faces. I'm not sure whether they run the OEM angles (which are different for SkiDoo and Arctic Cat) or whether they produce all TEAM clutches with the same angles. It would be good if I can use an Arctic Cat TEAM secondary as it will fit right on but if the face angles are different on the SkiDoo TEAM secondaries I will have to change to that when I start using the TRA clutches I have (and I will have to modify something as the SkiDoos use a spline for the secondary shaft). I assume you got an Arctic Cat clutch (green)?
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Do the TEAM clutches come in different diameters? The guys that make the hyper-lite would make one for the pilot, splined and all, but the first few would be brutal expensive because they'd have to purchase a boring bar for the splines. That was over a year ago, I think they even had a driven clutch in hand from someone already.
More info on TEAM clutches please :P
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Richard - if you get a chance, could you measure the outside diameter of the TEAM and, if it's relatively easy, the angle of the faces? I assume you got an Arctic Cat clutch (green)?
No, I have a red one - not sure what it goes on.
The OD of the clutch is 270 mm. (10.629")
Face Angle - 15 degrees - see pic below to reference the number.
Do the TEAM clutches come in different diameters? The guys that make the hyper-lite would make one for the pilot, splined and all, but the first few would be brutal expensive because they'd have to purchase a boring bar for the splines. That was over a year ago, I think they even had a driven clutch in hand from someone already.
More info on TEAM clutches please :P
I don't have any info on the Team clutches other than: I have one, ATV uses them and they seem to be pretty bullet proof. I'm pretty much ignorant about them otherwise.
The rollers are 23mm in diameter.
The helix I have in it has two ramps - 56-44 and 56-46. (I was going by memory with the last numbers) Neil said this would be a good starting point for the Dez's new drive train - educated guess by him. We'll see how close he got.
You can adjust the clutch for belt width by a bolt on the outer side of the clutch. It screws against a large washer that the spring rides on. Screw the bolt in for wider belts, out for narrower belts.
I was wrong about the bolts that need to be replaced. They are not allen key driven - they are Torx - that explains why James said they need to be replaced - with allen key.
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Thanks....google here I come!
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Red is Polaris. They are used a lot ... you may have noticed the Redlinie setup in the picture I posted earlier in this thread has a red TEAM driven and I noticed in a Sand Sports magazine that a Taz with a V Tec engine that was at the Sandsports show last Septemebr had a red TEAM driven. I've also seen them used by Olav Aaen a lot - including (I'm pretty sure) on the car that runs the V4. Aaen likes Polaris stuff!
I'm pretty sure I've found my new clutch - 15 degrees is what I need (I had hoped for 14.5 and many clutches are closer to 13). I think Polaris runs an angle close to that OEM - as does SkiDoo - so I need that angle to run with the TRA primary. And I'm pretty sure the Polaris mounts on the same 1 inch shaft with a key as does the Arctic Cat (and now I'm even surer of this because it wouldn't fit straight onto the Dez if that was not the case - and you would have mentioned something if that were the case). I just have to test the two seater with a regular Arctic Cat clutch (which is also 270mm diameter) so I can make sure the gearing won't be a hassel.
I would have liked to use a yellow one (SkiDoo) ... maybe I can paint a red one yellow!
Lude - I don't think you'll find them in different daimeters - Moskito's Polaris TEAM is 270mm, OEM Arctic Cat (all except Bearcat) are 10 5/8" which is 271mm and SkiDoo OEM is (from what I have read) 10 11/16 which is about 272.5mm. The only other TEAM secondary is made for a Yamaha and I don't know anything about the diameters but I'm thinking there isn't likely to be a big difference (does anybody know?)
Is there any way you can fit one of these in the Pilot? I don't suppose the SkiDoo spline is anything like the Pilot spline? Does moving it out from the gearbox help it clear the CV?
[I wonder if I'll get picked up for starting a sentence with "And"?]
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Guru,
Glad to hear that you took the beast foir a spin and that it is all that it can be. If it can be done you'll do it. have fun with it and still keepusd informed. You have one of the Baddest Pilotrs on earth my friend.
Chuck-Raptorman
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Oz,
They may not have them, I hoping they do, or that they'll make them...if not then I go back to hyper-lite, they would make one to fit the pilot....just have to hit them on their off season.
Moving it out doesn't help to clear the CV. Moving it out to the battery mouting plate still leaves the inner (moveable side) over the CV.
Artoux,
Guru....hardly LOL....Notice Moskito has more wrenches than me :P )Probably does in reality too :P :P) May have to set Oz up with a few of his own too.
Got a guy lined up to do the tank and exhaust, used to work at Pratt with me and did repair welds on gearbox cases for aircraft, best welder I've seen!
I need to get my hands on an electric start kit to make sure I have room for that (depending on price, I may keep it or not, it starts so easy by hand LOL). If I install a electric starter on it I may remove the pull start to make it narrower. Should be able to wrap an emergency pull start strap on the drive clutch as backup.
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I wouldn't hold out much hope for a TEAM secondary - they do a lot of OEM stuff (other than clutches) and don't seem to be the type of operation that would be eager to do smaller projects.
Don't those hyper-lites look great! And it looks like they have based the "workings" on the Arctic Cat setup. One of those would be awesome on a Pilot.
If you go down the hyper-lite path be sure to let me know in advance - I'd like to have a good talk about that before you get too far.
Let me know when I can call you (on a landline) - I'd like to talk to you about an idea (I type way too slow!!)
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I'm up late tonight...switch over....15 minutes would be good ;) Still got my number?
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How much smaller in diam of a driven clutch do you need?
A thought that hit me last night - maybe with a bit of machining you could turn the OD of the clutch sheaves down to a size that fits on a Pilot?
Open the sheaves up a bit and the belt should drop back into the clutch to the correct position. May have to put a few washers between the to sheaves for fine tuning of the width, but it's worth a mention.
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Brendan and I actually were talking about that last night ;) :P
Thoughts on...would a renforcing ring be necessary on the edge after machind down?
I'll go measure the OD of the 2 clutches....Arctic Cat driven is 270mm you say Oz...with 12.2" Center to center. Polaris is 12", both use 8" drive clutches? Polaris was 29? face angles....was the Arctic Cat the same?
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Guru....hardly LOL....Notice Moskito has more wrenches than me :P )Probably does in reality too :P :P) May have to set Oz up with a few of his own too.
I'll second that. Oz needs wrenches. (but he's not allowed to have SAE wrenches yet, only metric) Anyone else agree?
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Here's some numbers, rough measurements. If I turn down the AC driven to the edge of the bolt in plates (what are they for??) It would be 240mm diameter vs the pilot 225mm.
OEM on the pilot the belt lays on the CV at idle, but is the AC drive /engine were a bit higher, it would change the lay angle of the belt and I thin clear the CV.
If I turn the AC drive though, then I need to move the engine farther ahead to make up for the smaller diameter...belt too long...if I use the AC belt...Neil said they used stock belt, stock driven....OEM looks narrow in the AC drive.
The ploaris ATV's use the 3211077 which is the same as the pilot OEM belt, the sleds (all?) use the 3211080...I don't have one, but it must be longer and wider if they use a 12" c2c with a 8" drive and 10.6" driven. Any shorter (polaris ATV) but wider belts (sleds)?
xxxxxx--Arctic Cat----xxxxxxxx-------Pilot-------------xxxxxxxx
xxxxx---mm------------inch-------------mm-------------inch
driven---270.00--------10.63------------225.00----------8.86
drive----200.00--------7.87--------------190.50----------7.50
C2C-----314.00--------12.36-------------254.00---------10.00
belt cir--1220.00-------48.03------------1060.00---------41.73
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Belt lengths are difficult to compare - everybody measures them differently PLUS belts vary one to another by an amount that makes it unreliable to measure one sample (especially if it is used).
I have a listing that says they measure the belts by placing a steel tape around the outside of the belt.
I can't find a listing for a 3211077 so I don't know what the length should be. The 3211080 is supposed to be 46 1/2". There are many other belts used by various Polaris sleds. The common Arctic Cat belt (0627-020) is supposed to measure 47 3/8". This is used with the 12.2" c2c. It seems you can get down to 43 1/4" pretty easily but these don't seem to be popular so there are not many high performance belts for that size. I'm also unsure what side angle you'd be getting.
I'll spend a bit more time on this later (hopefully today or tonight) and we can see if we can come up with a good combination to aim for.
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This might help with your research.
http://www.gates.com/catalogs/file_display.cfm?file=snow_03.PDF&thisPath=gates\catalogs
Don't know why "\catalogs" won't come up as part of the hyperlink, but it needs to be part of the address in order for the link to work.
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Thanks PH.
Just saw some Polaris ATV secondaries on Ebay...they're splined :shock: I emailed asked for diameter measurement...can't find it online yet. I'm hoping since the ATV belts are smaller, that their seondary is as well (compared to sleds)
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just got a reply from Ebay seller he has one that is 9-1/2" he's going to check others ;)
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What are the chances that's a 1" 23 spline in there? :shock:
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here's a shot of the discs I was mentioing...what are they for?? That's about 240mm diameter....
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Ah - the discs... I got it now.
Those are to help avoid aerodynamic drag produced by the strengthening ribs on the clutch. Smoother surface = less drag.
I'm not sure why some come with them, some don't (sled model? touring versus sport? dunno). I've had them come from e-bay both ways - with and w/o the plates.
They're easy to remove and it doesn't make any difference if you do or don't use them.
Notice the clutch in the pic above the AC clutch has holes to mount plates to it - for that matter, so does my Team.
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I think the logic each way with the discs is that with the discs you get less drag (and less noise?) and without the discs you get better cooling - depends what your priorities are.
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Now I'm wondering again......
found this on P-O.com someone mopunted a AC drive on a 350 Ody.....
How much clearance do I need to leave between the belt and the CV???
Polaris is imperial correct? From Ebay seller
All of my driven clutches are 9 - 1/2inches.I have a 9 - 1/2 inch That came off of a sled with 1 inch shaft with 22 splines.
Close, but no cigar....
so...
a 350 driven (7/8 shaft 3/16" keyway) it's adjustable....but willit stand 100hp?
MAKE the arctic cat drive fit.....either new shaft or remove the spline from the pilot driven and bore the AC and mount to stock pilot input shaft....
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It seems to me the polaris ATV clutch would not necessarily be an improvement anyhow - smaller diameter than pilot, not sure what belt it would need and I don't know if it uses a helix.
The advantage I'd look for is being able to use all the sled stuff available. Is there any way you can you get an Arctic, Polaris (sled) or, even better a TEAM clutch in there? Maybe move the battery (is this a huge problem? Would it make the whole conversion a MUCH better conversion? (especially when it also allows you to centre the engine) Could you adapt it with a shaft that goes onto the pilot spline then goes into the clutch (which shouldn't be too hard to make/have made). Maybe then the shaft could go straight into something that braces it like in the pic of the 350 you put up.
If this isn't possible then I'd enquire with Hyper lite again. Decide whether you want to design a hyper lite which uses the OEM pilot primary (which would also suit powerbloc) or whether a better idea would be to design a hyper lite that fits the pilot (spline and diameter) but uses a 1 3/8" belt and a sled primary. The second option may not ba able to be used with pilot OEM engine (because you may not be able to get a belt the right length - width could probably be adjustable) but would seem a MUCH better setup for the 600EFI. The only disadvantage (compared to TEAM secondary) would be the diameter - you may not get the full range of ratios.
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I've been looking at the polaris ATV clutches only becuase I know TEAM makes them for the polaris ATV as well, just haven't been able toi reach them yet as I'm on nights. Hyper-lite seems to be gone bye bye.
The polaris ATV is 9-1/2" that's larger than the pilot.
Splining anything will cost a lot...a bar costs $1200+ USD :shock:
It would be nice to not have to split the tranny...but no huge deal if I have to and install a new straight shaft to accept a sled clutch.
I need to put the Arctic Cat secondary back on there and look at it again....it'll fit in there...but there's not much room....how much cearance would I need to have??? (between the belt/pulley and the CV).
Primary concern is a setup for the 600EFI...if it can spin-off to the OEM pilot setup cool.....I want to stay away from splining anything as that means I need to sell a bunch to get payback. I'd like to stay away from that.
I'll look at removing the battery mount and bracing similiar to the 350 pictured....I see that as more robust than the setup you had Skeeter, and if I center the engine...it's gonna be WAY out there! and need max support
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Sorry - my bad on the sizes - I had looked at your figures (Pilot clutch measurements) and saw the 10" that is the c2c measurement and had thought that was the diameter.
If TEAM make the OEM Polaris ATV clutches they probably have a helix (maybe similar to the aftermarket units?). I see why you're looking long and hard at them.
I still think it would be good to move to (at least) a 1 3/8" belt, hopefully in a length that is popular so you can get belts that will perform and last. Do you know what width belt the polaris ATVs run and whether you can get good ones?
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polaris non EBS run a stock pilot belt
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Once again, throwing out a thought...
What about modifying the shaft of a Pilot's driven clutch so that it's an adapter for a sled clutch?
Cut the shaft out of the clutch and turn it down so a sled clutch slides over it.
Install this internally splined tube over the Pilot's tranny input shaft and then cut a key way for the proper key.
The key way would have to be cut into the Pilot's shaft too. I'd do them both at the same time - may even tack weld the sleeve to the shaft before doing the machining. Don't get happy welding it on - you still need to be able to remove the shaft if you need to do tranny work - just a tack...
You would end up with, in essence, a sled clutch ready input shaft.
It seems like it would be an easy way to adapt a sled clutch - so that means it probably won't work. :?
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Uhh...I don't think there's enough difference in size to turn the pilot spline down to slide into the AC driven,,,
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Uhh...I don't think there's enough difference in size to turn the pilot spline down to slide into the AC driven,,,
See last line of my last reply...
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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now I'm not sure....chatting with Dennis he said it's been done...have to wait for pictures from him.
Moskito, that starter setup you have....it's not an OEM setup is it....at least I think it's not....I was told by the local dealer it uses a pinnion shaft setup and mounts on the exhaust end of the engine...where'd you get your starter/what's off of?
I've heard from a used parts sled dealer that the AC starters are junk...burn out once a year... :x
I tried to catch you this morning with a PM and get you to go into chat, that's what for ;)
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now I'm not sure....chatting with Dennis he said it's been done...have to wait for pictures from him.
Ah, interesting! Maybe it isn't such a hair brained idea after all :shock:
Moskito, that starter setup you have....it's not an OEM setup is it....at least I think it's not....I was told by the local dealer it uses a pinion shaft setup and mounts on the exhaust end of the engine...where'd you get your starter/what's off of?
It is a regular AC starter setup - I don't recall what from - It may be a 1000 triple. Since they didn't offer a starter setup for the 600 EFI, I made my own mount for the starter motor. I moved it to the other side of the engine and tucked it in and away from everything.
As long as everything lines up correctly, the starter bendix and starting ring could care less where they engage each other in relation to the cases.
I've heard from a used parts sled dealer that the AC starters are junk...burn out once a year... :x
LOL! It's one of the few items of the Dez that's survived. I did have to rebuild the bendix ass'y not too long ago, but the starter motor itself's been just fine. Go figure...
Pix attached so you can see what I did.
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Thanks....
It is a regular AC starter setup - I don't recall what from - It may be a 1000 triple. Since they didn't offer a starter setup for the 600 EFI, I made my own mount for the starter motor. I moved it to the other side of the engine and tucked it in and away from everything
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They do have a kit for a 600EFI...so I'm told......but anyhow..think I'm liking your setup better. ;)
Can I borrow it, or the other hunk of aluminum you think you have so I can see if I can fit/apply the same to my setup?
Here's some pictures I took last night...had to put them in the gallery a sI can ftp and batch add there...they're too big for me to upload one by one to the photo album, I'll move them over later.
http://p-o-ps.com/pops/gallery/index.php?cat=16
The AC belt is too long..needs the engine moved too far forward, then the exhaust manifold hits the seat.
The pilot one makes them purty close, pulley to pulley...
Today....
Bit the bullet and cut the spline off my pilot driven, and using it as the spacer and drive piece for the Arctic Cat driven. I was looking at the shaft in the manual and it has a spline on the other end for the gears mounted on it....duhhhh....so I can't make one of those anyhow! SO I decided to go this route....Going to clean up grab something to eat....no...I'll snap some pictures first...set them to upload...then go grab a bite to eat...take a rest, then head back out later.
The engine's over too far to the clutch side now...can't get the belt over the drive clutch :shock: :x ...so I'll remove the tack welds and move the engine plate over so that the pull start fits and hopefully enough room for belt installation on both clutches.
Now...mounting a brace for the end of the shaft. The tranny/engine are rubber mounted...I think I'm going to replace those with poly pucks (they're worn). Will mounting a support to the rubber battery mounts work out OK. We were having a long discussion over this last night in the garage.....will it be OK to mount a support to the frame, or does it have to be a support back to the tranny/engine. Will that setup you made Moskito, willit provide enough support for the end of that shaft?
Pictures to follow...
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a few more in there now:
http://p-o-ps.com/pops/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=62
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Don't know how much it will help, but here are pics of one I saw a while back. Great looking installation.
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Got the clutch mounted (no end support yet). Had to cut the battery tray off to allow the removel of the clutch :roll: There's suprising little spline area in the pilot driven....I'm using all of it, but the spline on the shaft is a lot longer.
I put a 1" peice in the end of the pilot spline tube, and welded it. Had to turn it down to the same diameter as the AC so the back sheave could slide over it, as I had to remove some material from the AC clutch. Put a key way in it and the AC slides on to that now, I'll weld the two together I imagine.
I'll go take some pictures of what I have done.
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Man, I'm no photographer...that's fer 'sure
Here's what I came up with though for the clutch:
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That's lookin' good!
The shortest belts I can find with the right angles and width (1 3/8") are all Arctic Cat belts. They are: 0227 103 (which was used on smaller #500cc engined sleds till the mid 90s), 0227 030, 0627 001, 0627 006 (which was used on #500cc sleds in the 80s then #500 - #700cc sleds around 1990) and the 0627 032. I'd get hold of one of these and see where the engine sits with that length belt.
The 0627020 is supposed to measure 47 3/8" while those I have mentioned are supposed to measure 43 5/8" (presumably using the same measuring method).
The only shorter 1 3/8" belts I could find were only slightly shorter and had the wrong angles.
If you haven't already, check out the Gates catalogue PH referred to - it's got stacks of info.
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I had a look at it while I was at work....takes forever here at home :roll: Do they list a length for the Polaris 3211077? Just like an idea of what the spread is between the pilot belt and the AC belt I have now. I guesstimating there's ~6" between the pilot and the AC belts...and then there's ~4" between the my AC belt and the shorter ones you listed.......that may work good.
I'll see if I can pick one up tomorrow from the Cat Shack (that's the name ;)).
Now, shaft end suppport. I'm giving up on Skeeter's method. That bolt I was going to use (engine/tranny bolt - modifying it into a stub shaft on the clutch side) is right in line with a frame rail. I can't get a tube long enough onto the stub I made, which I wanted to make even longer. So I'm scrapping that.
I'm now wondering if I can make a tube mount, (2 pc. split tube, bolt together that fits over the frame) for the bearing. My neighbor, Mike, was suggesting find a steady bearing (driveline bearing mounted in rubber) to use for the end support
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Is there any need for it to be rubber mounted? The gearbox is solid mounted (as far as I recall) so I would have thought the outside of the driven should be solid mounted too. Is ther any reason the other way?
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Damn Brian you've been busy...
OZPilot I'm pretty sure the FL400 Trany is NOT solid mounted - I believe it actually has rubber bushings inside the mount points although I'm not sure how much it actually flexes under power....
PilotHawk's last pict is of my FL670...
Also note that on PH second to last pict the starter is mounted under the exhaust side like the Cat was originally desinged.
For the record - YEA Skitter you are crazy - I mean thats why we love you dude :-)
I do believe Lude may be correct when he said that there is not enough space to simply turn down the pilot driven collar to fit into the cat 1" driven
If I recall correctly (can't find my damn notes) the pilot is 7/8" splined and the Cat is 1" round keyed.. (leaving 1/8" or so to work with)
I do have a FL400 driven clutch that is scrap as far as the faces - I don't have a metal lay so I haven't thought much about trying to turn it down - Skitter you wanta try ?????
Now back to what lude said about it being done before - Lude's driven mods are right inline with what I have...
I get no credit here this was some parts I got with the FL670 machine
The previous owner did the something similar to Lude but he didn't use the 1" shaft like Lude did, he simply welded the FL400 driven clutch collar to the Cat driven collar
Problem is (Like Lude pointed out) Honda actually only has a small amount of splines in the collar - If you look at my collar picts you will see that they are already getting warned down - this is the reason I went back to the stock FL400 driven for my last outing...
I still believe our best bet is to weld up a stock driven input shaft and turn it down to 1" and put a key way in it
(Anyone want to make one for me - I'll pay....)
http://p-o-ps.com/pops/gallery/index.php?cat=10078
(Hey Lude your photo album orderd my picts backwards - RATTS)
I would also like to better understand how you hook up a clutch brace between the drive and driven spinning clutches
Thanks
Dennis
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Damn Brian you've been busy...
I have been! It's been an awesome few days, starting to miss my wife and kids, but canI ever devote time to a project when they're gone, feels like I've been off for weeks and I only got off Friday morning!
The trany is hard mounted to the engine, both are mounted with rubber engine mounts. I was thinking og removinf them and relpacing them with poly and a steel inner bushing.
Wow! You're pic of the 670 with AC drive on...it uses no end support! And it looks like it's close to how far mine is out.... Think I'll still aim for a support...but I may be able to test as is at least?!
I'll have a look at the pilot collar again, but I don't think there's enough material for a keyway on it and use the spline section.
So I may be headed the same way...stripped splines...if so then I'll weld up the final shaft and trun it down and key it. Wonder if they're still available from Honda....and does Roberto still make/have some?
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When I grab a new (shorter) belt. How best to determine the correct C2C distance? Where'd you find that info Brendan?
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For the record - YEA Skitter you are crazy - I mean thats why we love you dude :-)
LOL!!!! Thanks man! 8)
B- I dont' know if Dan still does input shafts or not. Do you have his contact info? If not, PM me.
As far as support for the input shaft - what about something like Jay does on his cars? I can't find a pic, but what he's doing is using an arm that has a bearing on the end of the shaft (like mine) and drops into a pinned holder that attaches to the back of the frame.
Pull the pin, drop the support arm, change the belt, swing support arm back in place, stick pin back in support. It works beautifully, puts all the pulling stress directly in line with engine's pull and is easy to use.
I would have done my setup this way if it hadn't been one extra step for belt changing. Mine setup's been done with racer mentality - 'git 'er done' as quickly and easily as possible. Jay's setup is probably stronger than mine.
I would also like to better understand how you hook up a clutch brace between the drive and driven spinning clutches
What about doing one of the setups like HRD does - has a bearing on the end of the input shaft, one on the end of the driven clutch and then a pair of threaded adjusters between the two? Looks like a little bridge. How hard would it be to tie the two shafts together in such fashion with your setup B?
Somewhere on the P-O site is a pic, but I have no clue what to search for. (PH is our search and find man, so how 'bout it PH?)
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Is that mount soled mounted to the frame then? His engine/tranny solid mounted? Thoughts on mounting one to the pilot frame...solid or rubber???
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Brendan posted apicture of the HRD setup I think..dunno how I'd get a mount on the drive clutch...and then I'd be into the frame again, and have no room for belt removal :twisted: :roll: I like the idea of the pull pin type....to the rear...have to go have a look...got errands to run today too, so don't know how much time I'll have today....going to see if I can get a shorter belt and some steel to make a proper engine bed/plate.
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Yea I like the HRD setup - clutch to clutch with no hard mount points
I also would like to know how it attaches to the Drive clutch anyone have any details / picts or know where to go to get more info on it....
Of course were SOL if we don't have enough room inside the frame...
Interesting Stuff...
PS
I did buy a shaft from Dan back in fall of 2004 ($150) at the time he said he still had 2 or 3 left...
BUT
His shafts are 7/8" shaft and most sleds (including Cat) use a 1" keyed shaft. His also have 3/16" key and the Cats use a 1/4" key so we would need a step key or recut the keyway in the shaft (The shaft is Case Hardened - Hum) - So I guess I didn't gain much afterall
I also aquired a NOS coment Driven with wider faces than the stock FL350
I may just have to try it - I guess...
Hey- I did find some of my notes
FL350 Driven
7/8" ID
3/16" Keyway
4 1/4" long shaft
8 1/2" Wide Faces
FL400 Driven
7/8" ID
Splinned
4 5/8" long shaft
8 7/8" Wide Faces
Arctic Cat Driven
1" ID
1/4" keyway
5 5/8" long shaft
10 3/4" Wide Faces
New input shaft (23211-HE0-000 SHAFT, PRIMARY $94.55) looks to still be avaiable from Service Honda
DAMN GUYS - all this talk makes me want to blow off work this week and do some tinkering in the shop - to bad THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN...
Later
Dennis
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Well if Dan's shafts are only 7/8" and you can still get shafts from Honda....I'd be inclined to order a few and weld them and turn them to 1" and put a key way in those.
I picked up an Arctic Cat belt.....
Ended up getting a:
0227-030 which is 43-1/2" +/-3/16 length, 1-3/8 wide fits '88 Panther and others, which run a 10.2" C2C
Extended Life equivalent = 0627-002 43-3/8" +/-3/16 length 1-3/8" wide. ($25 more...try the cehaper one first LOL)
Looks like none of the Double-Cog high performance or Double-Cog high performance w/Hard Compound are available in the 43-1/2 - 43-5/8 lengths :(
At first look, I think the belt length looks good. Nicely between the 600 blet and the pilot belt.
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Wow for some reason that belt # rings a bell - I'll check mine when I get home tonight....
Hey if you are going this route - Please Please Please make one up for me also....
I'm still researcing this (I've never split a FL400 Tranny) but I believe you/ we will have to install the bearing on the input shaft before it is built up and turned back down
That is the only down side I see to doing changing the input shaft size...
Anyone know for sure....
Dennis
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the bearing on that end is a 62/32 looks lie the internal diameter is 32mm ;) so we're good there.
I'll probably order a few in the next few months if things go well and go that route as I suspect if you'r stripping the splines...I will too :( If I do, I'll let you know and make one up for you too ;)
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Once you get around to actually making your clutch work. you may want to check out http://www.pstuning.com Its a sled site primarily, but there are some good answers there. Our good buddy hoser likes to post there from time to time, and has had clutch issues with his conversion as well.
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I think the type of brace Moskito is talking about is like mine (but I have yet to change mine so it uses a pin instead of a nut and bolt). The best pic I can find at the moment isn't too clear but it will give you an idea. There are probably shots on the Drakart site but some of his use a double brace with the two arms at 90 degrees to each other - have a look and you'll see what I mean. I don't think you need that but I could be wrong.
If you use the pin setup (which is the way to go) it's not solid or rubber mounted - it will have a tiny bit of slack which will be taken up as soon as there is any stress on the brace. I think this looks like the way to go for you - a couple of seconds extra won't worry you when you change a belt (because you're unlikely to be in the middle of a race) and I think this set up is the lightest you will get (my brace is all alumin(i)um).
I'll get a better shot on the weekend for you.
You also need a brace between the engine and the gearbox. Even if the engine and gearbox are mounted together I'd still put ssome sort of brace between them. In sleds they list these as "torque rods" so if you search that term you'll se lots of different types. I like the SkiDoo type and made mine using SkiDoo parts (where it pushes on the engine) and made the rest (it's rough but it was a proto type at the time - just worked so well I never made a final version - when I get to making some for the single seaters they will be neater!).
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As far as support for the input shaft - what about something like Jay does on his cars? I can't find a pic, but what he's doing is using an arm that has a bearing on the end of the shaft (like mine) and drops into a pinned holder that attaches to the back of the frame.
Pull the pin, drop the support arm, change the belt, swing support arm back in place, stick pin back in support. It works beautifully, puts all the pulling stress directly in line with engine's pull and is easy to use.
I like that idea!...I don't think I have a frame brace directly behind the clutch, so I'll have to look into that...where I can attach it.
Well, quite a productive weekend, thanks for all the input/feedback guys! :D :D :D :D
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I know what you mean about the brace Brendan, I'll look for a place to add one of those as well. Thanks
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No time spent on it today, and I'm back on shift for 5 tomorrow, then Trish works nights when I get off, so it's hard to get to the shop...may be awile now before the next spurt, plu sI have to build up Dan's engine now that that parts arrived yesterday.
On the clutch driven support, I think I'll add a mount to the angled frame tube that the battery tray was mounted on. It will be a push, rather than pull style...as there is no frame behind the drive at the end there to attach to :roll:
Some sort of split tube mount to bolt over the frame tube, with a quick release pin type of mount to the bearing. Insted of the thick washer on the driven shaft bolt, I'll turn a stub for the bolt to pass through and the bearing to slid onto....
Well that's what I'm thinking anyhow.... :wink:
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I was just out in the shop pondering this driven issue...
Lude how much of the splines were you able to salvage from the stock driven for the cat. I have a spare stock FL400 driven and it appears to have about 2" of splines. The dude that modified my cat only used about 1" of the splines and he didn't add any external support...
I'm now (until I get a 1" input shaft - hint hint) thinking that I'll add an external shaft support and see if my spines will hold up...
Mine may have gotton a little warn when the driven bolt worked loose once...
Which brings me to a question
How are you guys keeping the driven clutch on the shaft if the shaft goes all the way thru the clutch to an outter bearing support - Like the FL350 person did ?
Do you install a locking collar on the shaft just prior to the outer bearing so the shaft or the driven clutch don't walk out ?
That make any sense ?
Brian one more question - How are you keeping the splinned collar (from the stock driven on the stock trany input shaft...
You welded the splinned collar to a 1" keyed shaft and you attach the cat driven to the shaft with a bolt but what keeps the splinned collar on the input shaft ? Is your 1" shaft hollow so you can screw into the stock splinned input shaft ?
Mine doesn't use a 1" shaft at all...
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I was just out in the shop pondering this driven issue...
Lude how much of the splines were you able to salvage from the stock driven for the cat. I have a spare stock FL400 driven and it appears to have about 2" of splines. The dude that modified my cat only used about 1" of the splines and he didn't add any external support...
I used all of the splined section of the pilot tube...there's more on the shaft than in the tube...maybe I'm OK then????
I'm now (until I get a 1" input shaft - hint hint)
Hint..huh? wha?! duh...oh yeah! Order a couple, send them, and I'll make ya one :P
Brian one more question - How are you keeping the splinned collar (from the stock driven on the stock trany input shaft...
You welded the splinned collar to a 1" keyed shaft and you attach the cat driven to the shaft with a bolt but what keeps the splinned collar on the input shaft ? Is your 1" shaft hollow so you can screw into the stock splinned input shaft ?
Mine doesn't use a 1" shaft at all...
Correct, I drilled through the 1" shaft and made an extra long bolt to bolt the whole assembly on.
thinking that I'll add an external shaft support and see if my spines will hold up...
Mine may have gotton a little warn when the driven bolt worked loose once...
Which brings me to a question
How are you guys keeping the driven clutch on the shaft if the shaft goes all the way thru the clutch to an outter bearing support - Like the FL350 person did ?
Do you install a locking collar on the shaft just prior to the outer bearing so the shaft or the driven clutch don't walk out ?
That make any sense ?
On the clutch driven support, I think I'll add a mount to the angled frame tube that the battery tray was mounted on. It will be a push, rather than pull style...as there is no frame behind the drive at the end there to attach to :roll:
Some sort of split tube mount to bolt over the frame tube, with a quick release pin type of mount to the bearing. Insted of the thick washer on the driven shaft bolt, I'll turn a stub for the bolt to pass through and the bearing to slid onto....
Well that's what I'm thinking anyhow.... ;)
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Here's what I'm thinking for a clutch support....
Will there be enough room to rotate the support out of the way and slip a belt on in between the support and the frame???
Angled surface OK? (need it to be able to rotate the piece out)
Quick release pin OK to hold it in place?
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Here's the different starter kits I found....
http://www.brownsleisureworld.com/
Online parts fiche ;)
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Still not decided on exactly what to use for a clutch support... self aligning pillow block bearing mounted on the frame, with a stub onto the driven.
or a bearing mounted on the driven and somthing similiar to my sketch
or a bearing on the driven, a tube that slides inside a tube mounted on the frame that will slide over the bearing....and off, and out of the larger tube for belt removal...removeable end cap on the larger tube to keep the support tube in place.
Thought on those....
Dennis, what did you do on your 350 for fuel pump? Do I need to get another AC fuel pump? (still trying to salvage the sled to drop the engine back into...I think :P) or can I use something else? The air intake has a sensor in it...did you utilize that? Make your your own intake or use the AC one?
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Still not decided on exactly what to use for a clutch support... self aligning pillow block bearing mounted on the frame, with a stub onto the driven.
or a bearing mounted on the driven and somthing similiar to my sketch
or a bearing on the driven, a tube that slides inside a tube mounted on the frame that will slide over the bearing....and off, and out of the larger tube for belt removal...removeable end cap on the larger tube to keep the support tube in place.
Thought on those....
Dennis, what did you do on your 350 for fuel pump? Do I need to get another AC fuel pump? (still trying to salvage the sled to drop the engine back into...I think :P) or can I use something else? The air intake has a sensor in it...did you utilize that? Make your your own intake or use the AC one?
I think I'm going to go with a bearing mounted on the Frame myself (like the FL350 guy did)
I used a Cat EFI fuel pump (ebay)
Yea I used the stock Cat Air Sensor mounted into the airbox
I actually used all the wiring that was stock on the Cat EFI / BrainBox and all...
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I think I'm going to go with a bearing mounted on the Frame myself (like the FL350 guy did)
Hard mounted?
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I think I'm going to go with a bearing mounted on the Frame myself (like the FL350 guy did)
Hard mounted?
I think so - I still need to do some more research on that...
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "self aligning pillow block"
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You can get pilow block bearings that allow the bearing to rotate slightly out of alignment, so alignment on installation is not critical....wondering if this would allow "some" movement.
I'm hearing that hard mounting "tight" would be bad as the tranny/engine can flex in thier mounts and this would bend the shaft if it is hard mounted. I think I want something rigid...but with initial play in there, so it only comes up hard when stressed.
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You can get pilow block bearings that allow the bearing to rotate slightly out of alignment, so alignment on installation is not critical....wondering if this would allow "some" movement.
I'm hearing that hard mounting "tight" would be bad as the tranny/engine can flex in thier mounts and this would bend the shaft if it is hard mounted. I think I want something rigid...but with initial play in there, so it only comes up hard when stressed.
Yea I've heard warnings about that also...
But I really wonder how much they flex ?
Maybe I'll run a pilow block mounted to the frame via rubber to add some extra protection ?
Gotta run - headed to Arena Cross - I'll check back later
Dennis
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I know my mounts are worn...and I'm going to replace them with nylon or some poly? something...but as is I can move the unit quite a bit
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I know my mounts are worn...and I'm going to replace them with nylon or some poly?
something...but as is I can move the unit quite a bit
That brings up an interesting point...
I'm sitting here examining both the FL350 and FL400 Service Manual and I notice some differences...
Both have the front of the motor mounted to the frame via rubber
FL350 has rear of motor mounted to frame via rubber
FL400 has rear of motor hard mounted to the Tranny
FL350 has front of the tranny hard mounted to the frame
FL400 has the front of the tranny mounted to the frame via rubber
FL350 has the rear of tranny hard mounted to the frame
Fl400 has the rear of the tranny mounted to the frame via rubber
It is very obvious that the motor to tranny mount on the FL400 is much stronger than that on the FL350
(because the rear of the motor is only supported via that mount point on the FL400)
The FL350 really only has the motor/tranny mounted in rubber via 4 contact points (Front motor L&R and Rear motor L&R)
The FL400 really only has the motor/tranny mounted in rubber via 5 contact points (Front motor L&R, Front Tranny Center, Rear Tranny L&R)
THE POINT - you knew it was coming right...
I don't ever recall anyone having issues with belt alignment due to engine flex on the FL350
Thus I'll theorize that if we firm up the tranny mounts on the FL400 we should not have a problem running an external transmission input shaft bearing support hard mounted to the frame...
I'd also wager a bet (albeit small) that the reason the motor/tranny was mounted in rubber was to primarily reduce the vibration
(Maybe LEE will add his insight to this)
On the other hand - I COULD BE ALL WET...
Later
Dennis
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Makes sense, but what will we introduce into the equation by firming up the mounts? Crazy amounts of vibration??? :roll: I hope not.
The fact that you have been running with no shaft support and have stripped splines before damaging things elsewhere has me wondering. I would have thought you'd damage a seal or bearing or bend that shaft introducing vibration before stripping splines, even if you're only using 1" of them.
I've been thinking about creating a pin point on the end of the driven that is against a flat piece of metal. Run it for a bit and see if the pin leaves a scratch mark indicating movement...maybe mount one off the tranny too and see if they correlate. If they're flexing, and flexing together, I may just run without one.....Just renew my rubber mounts
Opinions, thoughts??
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I can't imagine it would be OK to run the driven out where you have it without support - the bearing in the gearbox and other parts weren't designed to take the leverage the clutch will now have and you've got to remember you're now runing more power through it as well.
I think the pilot tranny is the only one I've ever seen that is not solid mounted. I figure they solid mounted the engine to the tranny to keep the clutches apart - sort of like the torque rods in sleds. They then had to rubber mount the trans because it was solid mounted to the engine. I don't think there would be any problem solid mounting the trans.
Draks are all solid mounted and some of them don't vibrate!
I'd stiffen up the trans mounts (or make them solid) and brace the outside of the driven as well as possible. If bracing the driven doesn't include a rod between the clutches then I'd use some sort of torque rod.
BTW, I think (for what that's worth!) it would be worthwhile spending some extra time designing the brace on the outside of the driven. Given the type of adapter you've made I think it would be a great benefit to others if you sold a kit that allowed a person to mount the Arctic driven to a pilot (and I wouldn't be surprised if a TEAM driven also fitted on with your "kit"). If I was doing a conversion using any sort of sled engine and I could buy a proven kit to mount the driven like you have (be it Arctic or TEAM) then that's the direction I'd go for sure. It allows the use of lots of high performance 1 3/8" belts and gives good adjustibility. It also uses clutches designed to take that sort of power. You'd just have to sell them on an exchange basis (the customer would have to provide a pilot driven in exchange) so you could cut the spline out of the exchange units. If you engineer a good setup you deserve to sell a few and get a few bucks back for your R & D time!!
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OK......I can still play with all these ideas as I don't have any time yet to get out to the garage to make anythign happen :(
I'm going to see if I can rubber mount the rear engine mounts (the fronts will still use the OEM style rubber mounts), make the tranny solid, and add a brace.
Just now I'm wondering if I can add a support behind the driven straight back to the rear of the frame. Support it out as far as possible (leaving roo for fully opened driven).
And find a torque rod position.... :roll:
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Sounds like a good plan. Rubber mounting the engine (like in a sled) with a hard mounted tranny (like in a sled?) should work fine. The engine is isolated, the belt shouldn't pass "that much" vibration to the tranny either.
I'm in agreeance w/Oz - the rubber mounted drive train of the Pilot is to keep the clutches aligned and it helps isolate drive train shocks from the chassis. But, the solid mounted tranny should work just fine. Tazcars & Coyotes all run rubber mounted engines and solid mounted trannies. A rubber mounted tranny could actually hinder this setup and allow some funky forces to be passed to the frame and input shaft now that I think about it.
Running a support back to the frame will work fine - try to keep it as in line with the clutch centers as possible. Just remember to make it so you have quick acess - the pin thing. No wrenches required for belt changes. - or make a mount that holds the proper wrench...
Don't forget to make sure you have enough clearance to remove/install the belt on both ends. Getting the engine in the Dez just right was tricky and I had a lot more room to work with than you do in a Pilot.
I know you already know these things, but it never hurts repeating them just so they stay fresh in your mind as you develop your drive train. It's easy to get narrow minded, focus on one particular aspect and forget about some of the other stuff. (wonder how I know that???)
BTW, have you ever seen how much an engine moves around as the clutches go through their motion? The old AC in the Dez torqued around a bunch - even after we added a stop pad to keep it from torquing down and back.
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Running a support back to the frame will work fine - try to keep it as in line with the clutch centers as possible. Just remember to make it so you have quick acess - the pin thing. No wrenches required for belt changes. - or make a mount that holds the proper wrench...
Running straight back was only if I can make one up to mount on the inside of the driven....between the driven and the tranny. If I go to the outside it will have to go to the diagonal frame tube.
Don't forget to make sure you have enough clearance to remove/install the belt on both ends. Getting the engine in the Dez just right was tricky and I had a lot more room to work with than you do in a Pilot.
That's why I was thinking of a brace on the inside...running out of room! FAST! LOL
I know you already know these things, but it never hurts repeating them just so they stay fresh in your mind as you develop your drive train. It's easy to get narrow minded, focus on one particular aspect and forget about some of the other stuff. (wonder how I know that???)
I appreciate any and all reiterations LOL.....
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I THINK I have figured out what I'll end up doing. If I can find a flange bearing with a 35-36mm ID. I'm going to ru a support from the clutch side upper tranny mount, passing around (shaft through brace in flange bearing) the driven shaft to the upper engine/tranny bolt that I had made into a stub for the attempt at the DezTaz type support. It will slide over that stub with a short tube in the end of the brace, and a bracket off the top for a torque mount just as was in the sled.
I'll see if I can snap a pic of what I was playing with later this evening after I get the girls in bed :)
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Anyone know of any sites that will have electrical schematics of AC sleds? I need to figure a bit of the wiring out of the EFI engine I'm dropping in my Pilot. Most of it is plug and play from the ECU to the engine. But I need to know what's what on the 3 wires coming out of the magneto that plug into the harness that splits into 2...one to the hood for lights and dash...the other to the handlebars for lights, kill, brake light, and key switches. I'm not worried about the handlebar warmers :P
The boondocker unit arrived today. :D :D It warns that you need to have the lights hooked up or install a 100W resistor...so I like to figure out the AC wiring so I can tie it into the Pilot's wiring.
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I've got an arctic cat CD - one of those ones that is supposed to be the shop manual the dealers use. I'll dig it out. Now that I think of it I think it may be for earlier models (2002?). I'll have a look.
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I've found some stuff. I have it as PDF. The engine management stuff isn't there (it says it is covered in a supplement). The chassis electrical system chapter is there and seems to have a lot of wiring diagram stuff. It is for a 2001 model but it may be of some help. The useful part is 1900kb - should I email it?
BTW- I got this CD pretty cheap from ebay - I'm sure they had later model CDs but I picked this one because that's the era of the Arctic driven clutches I have.
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no..please don't email it LOL.....can you post it here?
I just bought a manual for the sled off Ebay..I want it regardless if it has the wiring in it or not...but I hopeit does ;)
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I assume I just attach it as a file like I do with pics ... I'll try anyhow
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I'll try downloading it in a bit. Got NOTHING done this week :evil: :twisted: Put my back out Monday night when I rescued my sister-in-law who ran out of fuel. Figured I'd have the engine mounts done this week! Freakin' frackin' @#%!#$%
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Back's back in tune, hopefully I'll get some more done on the engine mounts this weekend ;)
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Take pictures!
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I'll try uploading some pics now...write up later...I'll put them in the gallery for now....I can set it to upload 10 pic's...go away for an hour while it uploads them :roll:
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http://p-o-ps.com/pops/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=68
got 10 pics uploaded.
I had lots of interruptions this weekend so I didn't get as much as I had hoped done on Friday...but late Saturday evening, things came together. THe engine is now mounted and I believe lined up well. I called it quits at 10pm, and will have to do a final check on the alignment. Somewhere along the lines I lost a rubber engine mount so I made a couple out of nylon for now for the front mounts. The engine cradle bolts into the stock pilot front mounts just like the 400 does. In the rear. the cradle has a pipe with two (one on either end) of the front engine rubber isolators in it. The engine to tranny mounting plates are used...no changes made to them....the top bolt has been replaced with a longer bolt with a shoulder on it which fits snug into the plate and then has steps up in diameter to form a stub shaft that the clutch support will mount on. The engine bolts down into the cradle using the four threaded holes in the bottom of the crankcase (not used in the sled) as well as the front mount clutch side, rear mount magneto side and the clutch support will incorporate the torque rod, putting it in the same place as it was when in the sled.
I only had to cut off the battery tray and support gusset so far. Had to remoe them to allow for belt changes. I have to check on the how far the driven opens and how close it comes to the upper caliper mounting bolt....I think I'll have to replace that bolt with a modified bolt. Sunken allen with a shoulder to grab the caliper.
If that works out fine...it's tank, exhaust and wiring time.....oh where to put the tanks! :shock: :roll: Hope Darrell is feeling creative when I drop it off :P
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Ahere are you planning on putting the battery???
You might think about putting it up between your feet in the foot well.
I did a bar mount that ran from the top of the front frame to the cross member just in front of the steering column and then hung the battery between the two rails. (sorry, can't find any pix)
It changes your weight bias rear to front by about 24 lbs. (remove battery from rear - subtract 12 lbs, move to front, add 12) - I'm sort of guessing on the 12 lbs... Anyhow, it will make the front end handle a tad bit better.
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I'm prolly going to leave it as a pull start for now at least, if/when I go to electric I'll prolly put the battery up front.......somewhere.....
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Dropped the pilot off tonight at TinTattoo (Darrell Bunn's), had a good chat with him and he's got some good ideas :) He plans on taking pictures too, so if I can get him online hopefully I can get some pics posted of his progress as he gets time to work on it.
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That's one thing I didn't talk to Darrell about...you reading this Darrell?? The elcetric starter :shock:
I know where there is an 2001 LE smashed sled I can get. The LE has electric start and reverse. I may get that, pull the starter and use it on my engine, and put the LS engine in the the ZR and sell it...or keep it :P THe LE is the newer model engine that hs the variable exhaust valves on it, and I don't think that will fit in with the way I have things mounted, they stick out pretty far and then the actuator cables stick out farther yet, I'm quite sure they'd be into the seat back.
But now the starter....I think it's mounted on the exhaust side of the engine, with a cross shaft setup...DAMN....just realised all the images in posts are gone since I swapped layouts..I was looking for the starter diagrams I had.... :twisted:
Anyhow I think the starter is mounted way off to the side (where part of the fuel tank will be going :shock: :? )
SO...I need to pick up that LE ASAP, or this pilot will be pull start only. Not SO bad as it pulls over real easy, especially compared to a 500 single!
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In talking to Darrell, he reminded me that we have a access to get aluminum parts sand cast not too far from here :) So if the engine mount turns out to work A-OK, I may try and clean it up and have it cast! :o Along with maybe the clutch support...mmmmmm
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What a top idea!!!
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Looks like we'll be putting dual pipes on the pilot 8) Darrell has access to a set of aftermarket pipes for the same sled engine, so he'll measure them up and copy the dimensions.
Main reason being, it looks like we'll be able to turn them out of the manifold quickly, one to either side, instead of down like the pilot exhaust.....and use that space and wrap around the seat a bit for fuel tank....guessing ~8 gallons... :)
The pipe will come up the sides one high one low, expansion chambers crossing on the rear of the pilot, then turn upwards and have the silencers follow the rear angled roll bars (up towards the roof) and then have their outputs trun straight back...possibly a optionally, removable secondary muffler/silencer hooking the two together to further limit noise, quickly removeable for sport riding :P
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I didn't quite follow that. Can you draw a picture or something to take a picture of? I am going to need help/ideas for my engine swap later this Summer.
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You DON'T want a drawing from me, trust me LOL
No worries there'll be pictures, but for now..it's just in our heads until Darrell gets some time to throw at it...hope it's soon I want to have it for the May run coming up.... :shock:
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Interesting....
So your pilot will have a stack - Like a semi or so :)
You might be better letting it point skyward so that you don't spit someting on your buddy that is following you - saftety issue maybe ?
If I read that right that means your stacking your pipes as the wrap around the motor...
I agree that you should be able to save some room by not using a 2 into 1 right out of the motor...
Interestingly enough I'm currently running dual exhaust on my 670 with 1 pipe exiting on each side of the motor.
I have been considering dumping the dual exhaust and going back to a stock single so I can run a nice single canister silencer horizontally.
Maybe I'll try the dual silencer stack idea :shock:
I'll just need to get another FMF Q2 silencer I guess ?
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Not quite stacked like a semi...they'll lay foward as the follow the rear roll bar tubes...the pipes will lay one over the other behind the engine....let's start again..
exiting the cylinders, they'll turn towards the sides of the pilot, one to either side, then one up over the clutches, one up where the stock tank used to be, then both will turn towards each other, each heading to the opposite side of the pilot frame from where they started, one expansion chamber high, one low, crossing over each other, then turn to go up the rear roll bar tubes with silencers, tips at the ends of the silencers pointing straight back...with the option of an auxiliary silencer/muffler tying the two silencers together for even more noise control.
So we'll run two silencers...have the tips hook into a....car muffler??? (thrush muffler...red bullet??)...through the side, block the ends and have one exit in the middle opposite the two in ports..
Make sense?
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So it will look like picture #1 and #2 but the expansion chambers will cross ?
And the Second Silencer will look something like picture #3
Man for the record I think your crazy too..... :D :D :D :D :D
PS
Took me a minute there to figure out how to add an attachment
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Close ;)
The exit from the cylinders will be tighter, not dipping down first. this will probably move the expansion chambers from being beside the engine to behind the engine, they'll turn 90? then go into expansion chambers, behind the airbox, one over the other, then the silencers will run up the bars where the tank is in pic #3, and have the an add on EXTRA silencer like in pic#3
Crazy?! Why would you say that?!?!? :shock: :lol:
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Crazy?! Why would you say that?!?!? :shock: :lol:
Just Ribbing Ya - And kinda thinking to myself that your exhaust is going to be real close to the gas tank - unless your putting it elsewhere ?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
PS
You know thinking outside the box can get you labeled CRAZY right... :D :lol: :lol: 8)
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Tank will be behind the seat and wrapping around it slightly, that's why the tight bend exiting the cylinders, instead of down first like the OEM pilot exhaust, so we can use that room for fuel tank.
It's not the first time I've been called crazy...prolly not the last :roll: :lol:
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Well...as I sit here in the hospital I now have some time to make an update...though there's not much to update one unfortunately. :(
The exhaust design has changed from duals back to a 2-into-1 design. Seems the aftermarket pipes we thought we had access to for copying were not from a 600 but a 800 triple..duh-oh! Plus going 2-into-1 is going to allow use of the original tank location and thereby more tank volume.....can't wait to see how much this tank is going to hold! It's .....85% mocked up in styrofoam now..waiting on some "J" pipe for the exhaust for now. The first section of the exhaust needs to be made so the tank can be made to clearance the pipes as they exit the cylinders and wrap around over the clutches. It's looking like...guesstimating that the tank will be 6 gallons+, and an additional ~1 gallon integrated for oil injection storage ;).
Some highlights:
Looks like (aiming for this) the tank will pull out easily from the cabin with only the seat removed.
Integrated oil resevoir for injection oil
Tank drain plug
Pick-up wells on either side of tank (tank wraps around seat and up into OEM airbox location)
Integrated heat shield for seat (removing seat heat shield)
Integrated clutch/belt guard for primary clutch
Oil tank level check tube
Going to get my Digatron setup for dual EGT's to monitor both cylinders independantly.
Tank, and air intake will be made from aluminum, the pipe will be steel.
Darrell unfortunately has not had much time to work on it, so not much has been done other than the tank mock up in styrofoam. I hope he finda more time soon.....I want to finish it up and test/ride! But I have lots to do in the garage in the meantime. I started insulating...so doing anything but that for now is next to impossible as everything is cramped into one corner. I don't want to loose access to working in there during winter again :x
I need to rebuild (I think, need to do a compression test first) Ted's top end and rebuild his master cylinders as last time I had it out it just seemed to lack some punch and lost all braking ability on the way home...fun fun....I have rebuild kits for the master cylinders and a new top end ready...so just need some time....after the garage :?
Then start back on the LT portion of this project again :roll:
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"As I sit here in the Hospital..."
I hope there is nothing seriously wrong.
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Same Here - Hope all is ok...
PS
The Cat Driven with the 1" of pilot splines did NOT hold up to the big WEST RIDE - I now have a driven with no splines....
Well back to the drawing boards with that one...
More to follow...
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I'm home again...just had to spend the night and today in for observation to monitor my sleep....or IMO lack of.....they say I slept well....but when I was awakened this morning I felt like crap :roll: Had to spend the day doing nap studies....It's only 8 pm and I'm wiped...actually been wiped all day....from the results of the nap studies, Trish (she did the night study) thinks I may get diagnosed with narcolepsy...great that's all I need RLS and narc too. All I know is I've been out of it for the last few months (been off work for 1-1/2 months now) and made some pretty stupid decisions I believe because of it. I'm hoping acupuncture will fix me up so I can go drug free...but it's getting to be an expensive avenue...
Anyhow...this is a pilot/odyssey forum and this is a pilot blog, not a "cry me a river" blog.
So Dennis, the driven spline stripped? Is the driven clutch OK? Now what....remove the driven shaft and have it welded/built up to 1" with a keyway in it?
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Acupuncture, owwy. :shock:
Dennis, how much difference was there in the stock driven over the sled driven? Just curious.
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The driven input shaft on the Tranny was not damaged (not much anyway) so the stock FL400 driven slid right on and worked great for the rest of the trip - Still ripped up the tallest dunes at St. Anthony this way..
The splines in the modified Cat driven clutch are what gave out...
This Cat Driven was one that a previous owner had welded a pilot's stock driven outer spline shaft onto - They only used about 1" of splines and I simply feel that it was not enough contact area for the power being put thru it.
Gary for the most part I didn't really notice much difference between the Cat driven and the stock FL400 driven. Except....
I'm running the stock Cat Drive Clutch on the machine and it is set up to run the wider Cat belt. Since I had to switch to the stock driven I also had to switch to a stock FL400 narrow drive belt.
Result was that I increased my engagement RPM and lost some of my top end because the narrower belt and the clutches not fully opening up.
All an all it still ran great..
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Spent a few hours over at Darrell's yesterday, he starting cutting up aluminum pieces for the tank yesterday :shock: :D :D I'll try and post some pictures of the tank mock up.
I got the throttle cable modified to accept the Arctic Cat's dual cable (throttle and oil injection). The cable sticking out of the pilot cable is a lot longer than what sticks out of the sled's cable sleeve. I pulled the junction box apart, remove the thumb throttle and the top piece. I machined a new top piece and added a long "tower" to take up the extra length in the pilot cable.
Got some copper tubing to re-route the water line from the water pump under the engine and up the backside(out of the way of the tank) and soldered some of it up.
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Here's some pictures of the tank mock up.....some didn't turn out great... sorry :(
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Wholy cow, lets see what kind of mathmatician you are, what is the volume(fuel capacity) of that shape? LOL, Looks really cool though. How are you guys shaping the aluminium before welding it together? I love the idea of low center of gravity tanks but I may have to go with a spun tank for ease of work, maybe... Got my brains wheels turning now. :D
Didn't the guy from Alaska on Kiowas board built one from diamond plate?
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A lot of the pieces Darrel is cutting and welding rather than bending...though yesterday he bent one by hand (anvil, hammer and hand bending)....the guy's unreal........standing there....looks at the mock up...rolls/bends the aluminum around for a few minutes....dends on the table.....on the anvil..some hammering....and holds it up to the mock up...fits perfect..UNREAL!!!
volume....ask Darrell LOL
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I hope I can get some time over there again tomorrow and I'll take some pictures of the actual tank then.
Now to start figuring out the wiring and how/where to tie into the pilot harness.
:roll:
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I hope I can get some time over there again tomorrow and I'll take some pictures of the actual tank then.
Now to start figuring out the wiring and how/where to tie into the pilot harness.
:roll:
When I dropped the 1999 EFI Cat 600 into the FL350 the wiring really wasn't that bad. (Although I did make one mistake that was a bugger to solve)
Make sure you don't wire the limp-home mode hot on the system or you will not be able to rev over 3000 RPM
Took me a while to find and correct that oops... (Cat dealer even with diagnosis computer hooked up was also stumped)
I don't recall the year of your EFI but I'm guessing its also a batteryless system.
If thats the case make sure you don't mix the 12+ AC current with a 12 DC current (But you already knew that...)
PS
On the 670 I had to run an external battery to power the radiatior fan but the FL400 lights seem to work fine on the AC current - Strange huh
Keep us posted...
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Mine's a 1998 EFI, so pretty similiar I think ;)
I haven't looked at the wiring diagrams yet.....gotta do that first I guess :P :roll:
Do you not have any DC output from the 670?
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Hey Dennis, Do you remember what color that wire was? I believe the one I am getting in from Moskito is a 98 and do not want to make that mistake either. Thanks for the tip! any others?
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Mine's a 1998 EFI, so pretty similiar I think ;)
I haven't looked at the wiring diagrams yet.....gotta do that first I guess :P :roll:
Do you not have any DC output from the 670?
Yea should be very similiar...
Not yet currently the 670 only has a regulator on the AC side
I need to get a rectifier so that I can charge the battery while its running
During the "Big West Trip" I was charging it between rides...
Hey Dennis, Do you remember what color that wire was? I believe the one I am getting in from Moskito is a 98 and do not want to make that mistake either. Thanks for the tip! any others?
Boy I sure don't - I can check the manual tonight and see if it rings any bells...
Otherwise I know you'll need the Cat Fuel Pump (injectors need a specific amound of pressure to work correctly) and of course the computer ECU box
nothing else sticks out (at the moment at least)...
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Thanks Dennis, He said he stripped every scrap of wire/gauge/light/etc out of the machine so it should have everything. It even comes with the aftermarket Hi-Pro chip. How much HP is stock and how many more is the chip giving? Anyone, Bueler, Bueler,.... Sorry, couldn't resist. LOL
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I think stock is 108HP :shock:
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108 sounds about right...
The fuel pump is mounted inside the gas tank on the Sled...
You can also find them on ebay every so often...
I believe I also have a spare if you find yours is missing...
8)
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Is it possible to tie the 2 yellow wires from the engine (from magneto) to the 3 yellow wires (leave one off?) going into the pilot's regulator? Honda's have their recitifier's inside their regulators...correct?
The lighting coil is listed as a 12V/175W...all other electrical has their own coils...fuel pump coil, injector coil, ignition charge coil, and timin sensor...so the 175W should be true wattage available for lighting.....the pilots are 200W at 5000rpm.....so.....would they be about the same...25 watts for electrical...175 for battery charging and lights?? :?:
Did you tie into the 350 wiring Dennis? Battery charging, and lights? What were you able to run for lights?
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Is it possible to tie the 2 yellow wires from the engine (from magneto) to the 3 yellow wires (leave one off?) going into the pilot's regulator? Honda's have their recitifier's inside their regulators...correct?
The lighting coil is listed as a 12V/175W...all other electrical has their own coils...fuel pump coil, injector coil, ignition charge coil, and timin sensor...so the 175W should be true wattage available for lighting.....the pilots are 200W at 5000rpm.....so.....would they be about the same...25 watts for electrical...175 for battery charging and lights?? :?:
Did you tie into the 350 wiring Dennis? Battery charging, and lights? What were you able to run for lights?
Without looking at the manual yea I believe so
The Mag should have seporate leads for both the ignition and the lighting, you should only have to run the lighting lead thru the regulator/rectifier
I also believe your correct honda used a combo regulator/rectifier
I did tie the cat into the FL350 wiring and I ran two 55watt lights if my crusty memory is correct...
I guess I should have taken better notes... :shock:
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here's some more tank pictures :)
connected at Darrell's via bluetooth cellular LOL
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Without looking at the manual yea I believe so
The Mag should have seporate leads for both the ignition and the lighting, you should only have to run the lighting lead thru the regulator/rectifier
I also believe your correct honda used a combo regulator/rectifier
I did tie the cat into the FL350 wiring and I ran two 55watt lights if my crusty memory is correct...
I guess I should have taken better notes... :shock:
one yellow from the AC engine to one pilot regulator yellow...and the other AC yellow wire to.......two pilot yellows...or one...and leave one alone????
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well.....the whole handle bar (thumb and hand warmers), kill switch dash and light, harness can be left off...so I think....had spark without it. The kill switch and key switch kill the engine when closed. The key switch is part of the ECU harness (open for run, closed for kill). so I can wire in a key, or toggle switch to kill it for testing.
Think I'll wire the fuel or parking brake indicator light in as the engine water temp warning light from the sled sensor and leave the rad sensor wired into the OEM dash water temp warning light.
If I can tie the sled magneto directly into the pilot regulator, using the pilot lighting should be easy enough....
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one yellow from the AC engine to one pilot regulator yellow...and the other AC yellow wire to.......two pilot yellows...or one...and leave one alone????
Id say you leave the outter most Yellow on the FL400 Regulator unhooked and hook the two cat Yellows from the Mag to 1-1 with the two Yellows on the FL400 Regulator
Why
Looking at the FL400 wiring diagram there are actually 4 yellows AC being feed from the FL400 Alt/mag (but two are from the same winding)
Of the two one runs to the CDI unit and feeds the Coil while the other feeds the outermost yellow on the FL400 Regulator
The other two yellows on the FL400 simply run to the regulator and then 1 powers the lighting circut 12DC (Black wire) and 1 powers/charges the battery(Red)
The Cat mag runs different color wire (ie not yellow) to the ECU for the coil
The two yellows on the cat are both for lighting and thus on a FL400 will need to be converted to DC for the lights
Man its been a while since I did this to my FL350 and the FL400 is slightly different as far as wiring so I can't take any responsibility for this....
Maybe some others will chime in on it :shock:
PS
maybe you can hook up the FL400 regulator to the yellows from the cat mag and Green to Gound/engine and nothing else then put a volt meter on Black or Red of the regulator to make sure you are getting a 12v DC reading while the engine runs...
You could then add the third yellow on the FL400 regulator to one of the yellows from the cat mag and see if it makes any difference - It should not because the regulator is grounded and any excess AC current not converted to 12v DC should just be put to ground...
PSS
I believe the mistake I made with the limp home mode was connecting the voliet and Black/White wires together on the ECU
I believe closing this circuit caused ECU to force the Throttle sensor to only register a little thus the motor would not rev up...
(Cat dealer thought my "Throttle position" sensor was bad but he said he had never heard of one failing)
8)
Thats my .02 - Don't know if it helps any
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Great info guys! Keep spewing it out, I am going to need all the info I can. :P
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Gary,
I hope to pull all the info and stuff I had to do and put it all together into one post/thread/entry once I'm done and feel the project is a success and 90% complete (when is anything like this ever totally done :lol: ). So that anyone interested can find everything in one spot rather than dig through 10+ pages of posts. Now, I'm not saying I'll have that done in time for you starting yours :P ...you'll probably have to dig and wade through :roll: I may start a new thread and lock it so only I can post to it (just to keep it clean) and use that as that as my method to pull all pertinent info together...yeah...I like that idea :D
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Great Idea! I was going thru this morning from the begining, seeing what was important to know. I am going to print off alot of key info and add it to my manuals/books/binders(I am wierd like that).
Did someone try to PM me? I had like 6 messages in 2 minutes saying that I had PMs but nothing here? :cry: Germain, quit teasing. Tito, Get me a tissue!(Eddie Murphy, mid 80s stand up) :wink:
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more tank pictures
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more
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Countdown to startup is on! (I think :roll: :lol: ) HopefullyI can have the pilot back this coming weekend...tank should be down now (have to see if I can pull a low level sensor from a tank to add in). Darrell has the pipe mapped out, figures a day or so for the pipe, and then finish touches (airbox/intake)....so hopefully he can dedicate enough time to it this week to get it finished up. Then I need to go over the engine mounting.....get a few proper sized bolts.....make the clutch support (need a bearing for that yet)...then start 'er up and start testing it :shock: 8) :D
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some more tank pictures and some pipe pictures and video clips...
Tank is done...oops..minus a couple breather tubes....its in and mounted :)
Pipe is cut out and welded and has been blown up ~halfway with air....the rest will be done today with a pressure washer :P So what you see still has to expand and the tight curves will open up more yet.
Then an air box and filter setup.......
Then......
drum roll...
Testing time
<fingers crossed>
:)
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Well, we didn't touch the pipe last night :( but Darrell got the header pipe/2into1 made up. And I played with wiring. Think I have it figured out :wink: :?: :roll: :) I have an old stator that was pretty much toast, so I cut the plug off that and made a 3 wire harness that plugs into the Arctic Cat plug (3 prong plug - 1 male(ground) and 2 femal(AC from coils) with a 4 prong trailer plug. Took 2 wires from the pilot regulator and tied them into one of the AC's coil wires and the 3rd pilot wire into the other. I will try and use the 5 prong plug that feeds the fuse box as well. Last night I just jumpered the one red wire to the lighting circuit and could get the neutral light ot glow a little bit while pulling the AC engine over. For now the ECU is bolted to the bracket that the CDI mounted to...it's a rat's nest of wires that I want to try and neaten up at a later date :roll: I have to tie the low fuel level into the harness yet too....and I would like to try and tie the AC's coolant temp sensor into the parking brake warning light on the dash.
For now I'll have to swap back and forth between 2nd EGT and water temp until I send it in to get it changed so I can read 2 EGTs and water temp at the same time. The Boondocker unit allows the clutch side to be adjusted (add or subtract fuel) independent of the magneto side. So any differences in the header pipe lengths should be able to be compensated for quite easily.
I'll update more later, and go live on video in the chat room if I get over to Darrell's today. ;)
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The tank looks sweet. Killer job.
Air and then pressure washer?!?! I would never have thought of that. Very cool!!
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Nice work, keep the info flowing! :wink:
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Lude, that's looking great. This is definitely shaping up as the most serious (engine) conversion in a pilot I've seen.
I imagine you're keeping those breathers big (on the side opposite the filler) so you can fill quickly.
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Lude, that's looking great. This is definitely shaping up as the most serious (engine) conversion in a pilot I've seen.
I imagine you're keeping those breathers big (on the side opposite the filler) so you can fill quickly.
Thanks...but you lost me on the filler comment :? :? v What you see is oil filler, fuel pump hole, and fuel filler...
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Well, this is all taking a lot longer than I had hoped and expected (for Darrell too I think :P ) But it's coming together. The pipe is done and mounted. It didn't turn out quite as expected...one bend we had hoped would have come closer to a 90 degree bend is more like 70-75degrees. This puts part of the chamber into the space we had envisioned for the air box. Now we had already planned a 2 piece box...a box with snorkels leading to the filter section behind the roof panel, above my relocated rad. We'll still do this...but the box section connecting the throttle bodies to the snorkels will have to quite narrow....it will rise vetically as a thin rectangular section to in front of the original rad cross support bar. Then converge into to cylinders to tubes up to the filter box. Hopefully we can curve the lower back corner of the air box so it's not a straight 90 degrees corner.....
We mounted a Supertrapp tuneable muffler onto the pipe...curious to see how that works out..performance and sound wise ;)
The tanks were pressure tested...and oil added to the oil resevoir....just a tad left in from a gallon jug...a little over 3.75 litres! 8)
Now to take it a gas station and fill the fuel tank to see what it holds...and to see how much goes in before the low fuel sensor untrips.
Darrell's got a rush job that had to be done today...hopefully the air box can be worked on after that and be finished tonight so I can start testing this creation out! :shock:
I have some fixes to do on various things yet too...I need to repair a lower A-arm (hiems pulled out last year...I made threaded bushings to weld in....and I need to fab up the clutch support before too much hard riding gets done...
If you're online tonight, check out the chatroom....if possbile I'll have the laptop and camera going at Darrell's again.... :)
Wish us luck ;)
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What the heck are the two downloadable ".3g2" files? What opens them?
On the pipe - I know it's probably not what you want, but how hard would it be to cut & weld the pipe and make the 90 degree section actually be 90?
Sounds like it would make the rest of the stuff, that you'd planned, work as planned if you did.
You need to do a "how to" on hydro forming. - it would be a killer way to fix dented MX bike pipes too.
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those files open with QuickTime I believe...they're video clips taken with my phone of the pipe being blown up initiall with air ;)
If we cut the pipe...it would have changed the volume quite a bit...and we already played with the volume to cut, rotate, and fit the section that turns up...so weo pted to leave it as is....Next time (if there is a next time) he says he'd add 15-20% extra to the curves because that's about what they're tight by.
A how to on hydro forming...pretty simple....weld in a bung on either end (or clamp in something that will take 1500-2000psi) attach a pressure washer to one end....a valve on the other. Open the valve, turn on the PW...start closing the valave on the other end...and watch it ballon out.....you can hammer out wrinkles and dents while under pressure. Darrell had a 1600psi washer ad it really wasn't enough for 0.0325" thick for the pilot pipe. ;) :)
SO....had it running!!! Ah what a sweet sound! We had to pull the tank and repair a couple leaking seams....and then started on the airbox. The tank can be pulled with only removing the seat! Larger tank...larger engine...and the tank comes out easier! LOL The pipe comes out with 3 bolts...and leaves the header 2 into 1 section on the engine. Got weld in bungs for EGT sensors in too ;)
I have to finish up the lower airbox (pop rivet some strips on and mount it). Then make a template for a filter box up behind the roof. (May run filters on the snorkel ends for the time being. Fab the clutch support (now that I have it home again)....I'll be testing the clutch alignment and engine without it :shock:
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well I still have some hurdles to overcome....
I'm not getting good DC voltage out of the pilot....When I rev it up...my DC volts go down :? :shock:
The SuperTrapp was too restrictive as is....runs good with no discs.....I have yet to hook up the Boondocker unit to adjust the injectors...I may be able to add some discs after that.
Definitely have some clutch work to do...engages too high for my liking and I think the driven needs to have its spring tighter....I need to load up and get top some open run space and see how th clutching really is...
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I thought Supertrapps were for 4 strokes, but I could be wrong(and I usually am). LOL
What kind of stall are you talking? 5,000+? Stock drive and staock pilot driven?, I guess I can go back and reread that info.
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I thought Supertrapps were for 4 strokes
I'm with ya Gary - I thought the same thing... :?
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Lude has plans to put a FLAPPER on the tip of the supertrap....a la baja buggy style!
On another note Lude. I talked with my brother about your drop in DC voltage. He thinks that the diodes in the pilot voltage regulator aren't up to the task of controlling the voltages put out by the arctic cat motor. WITHOUT schematics though he can't tell anything.
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There ae no plans for a FLAPPER...none...no where, no how! Just becuase I have a lifted 4 wheel drive mini-van...I mean MPV....does not mean I'm adding a FLAPPER
NOT
Trying to post scans of the schematics now
SuperTrapps are most commonly used on 4 Strokes....but all it is, is a tuneable silencer
I believe the clutch engages at 5500...as I remember when it was inthe sled. Stock Arctic Cat drive and driven.
You guys need mics and cams....it was nice being able to troubleshoot and not have to type as I was doing it last night :P
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Made some progress :)
Got the Boondocker unit hooked up and functioning......what a nice way to jet an engine :shock: :D :) :lol: Stay in the seat...leave the engine runing...pusha few buttons and give it a try.....then adjust again...WAY COOL!. I still a way to go on fine tuning it, as the Boondocker unit has settings for 5 rpm ranges, and within each range there's 3 load settings...as well as the option to trim one cylinder to the other :shock:
If I can get the recitifier circuit figured out, the fan should handle the cooling job fine...it's not blowing at full speed now and it kept temps under control (wired in constant though).
So far it seems like it only wants to open up to 6900-7200 rpm.....may be jetting issues yet....but that's why I guess it doesn't seem as fast the piot engine. top speed (as of now) may be lower...but it gets there a lot faster ;)
I want to change the weights and maybe spring in the drive clutch. It's set to engage at 4500 rpm (stock) I think...but it's engaging at ~5000 rpm. I'd like it around 3500 I think. And change the spring to a lighter one...upshifting is too slow and drawn out. The belt is travelling all the way up the driven (haven't marked the clutch yet for positive results - just a visual check while driving), and the driven looks like it's open all the way too.
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So far it seems like it only wants to open up to 6900-7200 rpm.....may be jetting issues yet....but that's why I guess it doesn't seem as fast the piot engine. top speed (as of now) may be lower...but it gets there a lot faster ;)
Well I have to take some of that back. I had Ted's pilot out this past weekend...even though it need scrank bearings, it puts the 600 to shame. It's been so long since I drove I thought the 600 was making good power :oops: Ted's pulls a lot harder from the get go, and top speed is much higher than the 600. :( So I'm not out of the woods yet. I'm redoing the clutch adapter as it had more runout than I liked and I picked up a piece of 1" shaft with a ekyway already in it. I'm going to borrow a stick welder to weld it this time too as my mig didn't penetrate the pilot's stub shaft very well...hopefully my father's stick welder will ;)
This thing has double the horsepower of Ted's....put I'm not getting those ponies out.....I'm wondering if the exhaust/airbox is holding the engine back...the clutching can be off...but it should still run circles around a 400 with ~45HP
I'm looking at the exhaust and the 2 into 1 I think may be the culprit, one tube is 4-1/2" longer to the merge than the other. The stock pipe has them both merging at exactly the same point and ~2-1/2" atfter the manifold. I'm assuming that a 2 into one exhaust on a 2 stroke would be a pretty integral part of it's performance, because it determines the pipe's ability to "stuff" the cylinder....
Thoughts, opinions, ideas???
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Dennis is the man on troubleshooting with the jetting/clutching/pipe tuning on these engines. (Hows that for putting some pressure on!?!)
I am betting on your clutching being the main culprit. I had my 102C with the cams/springs setup to engage way too early and it was a total dog, excellerating, climbing, ect. I do not think my RPMs ever topped 7,000. Dennis witnessed it at Walden. When I got it home, I reinstalled the 5500 stall 102 and BINGO! Back to normal power, actually faster, the boggy load caused the rings to seat properly and really upped my compression.
You will find the answer, just keep plugging away(and find all the problems so I do not have them when I start my install!) LOL, Got the stuff last night from Skeeter too! :P
Gary
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Yeah, maybe clutching is more part of it than I figured. I tightened the driven spring and it won't rev out now :P
I have to get the adapter redone first..I want to eliminate the runout causing any excessive/varying load on the engine. And try and get some weights for the drive...I want to lower the engage to ~ 3500 I think....
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Hum....
If I was to take a 50ft stab at it I'd say Lude is on the right track with the exhaust change issues...
The Cat EFI's that I've played with are VERY particular about there exhaust flow...
If possible I'd use a stock cat manifold...
When I was working the exhaust on the 600 White Knuckle machine I took the stock cat 2 into 1 exhaust manifold and angled it down some to clear things I lost some HP from this but not enough to matter...
Later I changed the main pipe and silencer it had a huge impact on the performance (Not for the better).
After going back to a stock cat stock pipe with only a slight bend adjustment change it woke back up and started ripping again it would easily rev to 8500 RPM with stock cat drive clutch and stock FL350 driven.
I was also running a very short straight thru silencer
Clutching could also be an issue but the 600 has enough HP that it should clobber a 400cc pilot even if the clutches are a mile off...
PS
You might want to try just taking the silencer off and see if that helps
my .02
Dennis
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Well the silencer is pretty much straight through with the end caps removed (which they are).
Problem is now the tank is made and limits what can be done exhaust wise.... :( :? But I'll look to see if there's anyway to use the stock 2into1 or something closer to it's design....
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Hey Dennis, When you changed the main pipe, what did you change to? I do not want to fall into that later when I build up this 600(port/polish/pipe/ect) Way later ofcourse.
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Both main pipes started as stock Cat EFI pipes for the 600.
On one I got a little carried away and made to many bend changes (removed some of it) to make it route like the stock one did.
It ended up being to restrictive and did not function correctly.
Later I just cut and changed the angle of the existing stock head pipe. (area from the inlet to the beginning of the expansion area)
I left most of it just stock...
As a side note on the 670 rotax (non EFI) I made major changes to the stock pipe header when switching from duals to a single and it only had a very minor impact on the motors performance.
EFI motors seem to be much more picky about exhaust flow...
PS
I doubt that you will ever need to port or polish a 600 EFI - should already have more HP than you can get to the ground
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PS
I doubt that you will ever need to port or polish a 600 EFI - should already have more HP than you can get to the ground[/quote]
Your are probably right and these engines probably have been made to flow very well, but its just a Gary thing. I like to go thru things and see if I can squeeze an little more out. I really like a crisp throttle. It will probably be an 350 axle snapper anyway! LOL
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Your are probably right and these engines probably have been made to flow very well, but its just a Gary thing.
I like to go thru things and see if I can squeeze an little more out. I really like a crisp throttle.
It will probably be an 350 axle snapper anyway! LOL
Your 1st "Gary Thing" should be BUY WORKS SHOCKS for the rear
Otherwise your FL350 is really just a FL250 with a JATO rocket for a powerplant.... :shock:
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Thats no shit! LOL I plan on building/fabbing some kind of LT rear suspension for the "TNT" That Nuke-em Thing project, but really could use em on the 420 and my normal rider.
Hey Lude, can you still get Works thru your store? I remember talking to you about the "heart transplants" when I first got on your site. I don't remember if you can use them in stock shocks, I am betting on no. I am not buying anything until I pay Skeeter for all the goodies.
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"TNT" ....you crack me up man!!!!!!
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Dennis named it! LOL, Fed wanted to call it "The thing that should not be", after the Metallica song. I was calling it the Frankenstien 350, but Skeeter would sue me for copy right infringment. LMAO :lol:
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Lude, I think I'd be looking at the header pipes you have put on. My second guess would be to look at the final bend in the pipe where it bends back up on itself towards the silencer.
Does it feel like it has a power band?
The header set up is more like I would design for a 4 stroke. I know less about 2 stroke pipes than I know about 4 stroke pipes and the only expansion chambers I have made have been pretty close copies of known performers for that reason. But I do know that 4 strokes benefit from smooth flow and, while back pressure comes into the equation, you don't have to consider "reverse pulses" like you do in a 2 stroke. The collector you have used would be good in a 4 stroke system but is very different to what I've always seen on 2 strokes.
It seems from your photos that the OEM 2 into 1 "manifold" on the arctic cat is very similar to what you see on Rotaxes. It is short and the intersection is more of a true Y rather than a merging of 2 pipes like you have in your collector. I think the length will be critical. I also think the lengths probably should be identical or at least close. I'm not as sure about the "Y" shape verses the "flowy" collector shape but I'm figuring Arctic Cat and Rotax have done their homework and I'd be trying to copy the OEM setup as much as possible.
It's frustrating that the tank is made but it seems to me you need to do some experimenting. If there is no real noticable power band with the setup you have I would bet you won't get the performance you should have till the pipe is sorted. Maybe you can make some experimental stuff that fits without the seat and/or without the tank?
I would first give it a run with something different (as little as possible) on the induction side. That will tip you off as to whether any huge problem that is lurking in the induction side. I imagine the problem is not on that side but its worth checking that first because its much easier (I think!)
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I agree it's most likely the pipe. Guess we rushed it at the end and didn't much attention to the front end of the exhaust :( I wanted it ready for the National Superbike weekend next weekend....I doubt that will happen now.
We'll probably cut a section of the tank out to make more room for the 2into1 OEM Y pipe and redo the exhaust. This time hopefully we can leave more room for the air box too ;) The tank was getting rubbed in a couple spots too, so we'll have to make some adjustments there and make all the mounts rubber mounted as one or two crackes are forming due to the frame twisting I think.....and that was without any hard riding yet too :shock: :lol:
It's just ending up taking way longer than I had wanted...but it should be a killer machine when complete 8)
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Your 95% there, you just need to fine tune the bugs out and it will be a bad ass machine. Keep plugging away and keep posting updates(they are much appreciated!)
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I had Ted's pilot out this past weekend...even though it need scrank bearings, it puts the 600 to shame. It's been so long since I drove I thought the 600 was making good power Ted's pulls a lot harder from the get go, and top speed is much higher than the 600.
Your 95% there, you just need to fine tune the bugs out and it will be a bad ass machine. Keep plugging away and keep posting updates(they are much appreciated!)
I just want everybody to realize that my machine is no normal 400. When I'm in it (and certain select few who take the same drugs... I think you have to agree with me, eh Oz?) it is like its carried by unknown forces... hence, I say God breathes into it and it flys.[/quote]
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Bring it out to the sand in Wyoming! I think my built 350 can run it down, or at least drag racing and climbing. The stock suspension limits me, for now. Thats my best smack talk! :P :lol:
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I knew that would bring out a post by Tman!
No worries Gary, Ted's still got stock...worn shocks on the pilot....but that doesn't seem to slow him down...nothing does......well, 'cept for logs on the sides of trails! :lol:
Got some plans for that pilot of his though.....he hasn't driven driven it in so long now....when he does....it will feel like it's flying!
The 600 I thin is going to sit for awhile....I can't weld aluminum and Darrell's got a bunch of stuff ahead of him now. The tank needs to have the section behind the seat cut down to make more room so we can use the stock Y pipe and we'll try another hydro formed pipe and a new airbox. I've got some other things I want to pick away at on it as well...front A-arms need some TLC...change my nerf bars a bit...I'm thinkink of putting my next to new plastic on it..painting the frame....I may pull the tranny and modify the final shaft (weld it up to 1", lengthen it and machine a keyway into it) so there's no adapter anymore.
I want to get Ted's working, I have a 500 that needs to be built and sold, rebuild a 400 for our spare pilot and sell off parts I don't need anymore due to the 600 conversion (stock tank, extended tank, etc)....and get the rear interior of the shop finished! Ted....when you coming down again!!! LOL We're ready to paint now :P And we can probably have a visit with our party neighbors again too...we were out with them this past weekend :P
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Git 'er Done?...Got 'er done!
HOLY CRAP!
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So, it's done? It works??? More info, more info!
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Yup it's done...well the tank and pipe....I have stuff to tidy/finish/straighten out yet. Like the AC to DC circuitry mainly.
But it runs like it should now :shock: :shock: ...I'm not selling out anymore LOL...not for awhile anyhow...was out today for a couple hours and it was just too much fun to part with. :lol: :D :lol: :D :shock: :shock: :wink:
Now to finish things off. I going to try and find a different rectifier, one from a single stage AC stator setup....I was told some GM altenators should provide me with the parts I need.... :wink: As is the fan doesn't spin fast enough..I've got it wired on constant and for the most part it maintains OK......but if you get into flogging it for a bit, it gets too hot and I think the ECU goes into safe mode..let it cool down and it's fine again. I'm going to wire the sled coolant sensor (there's 2, one for the ECU and one for a dash warning light - going to wire this one) to the coolant warning light in the steering yoke. I have a coolant sensor on the Digatron...but I don't know yet what the sled is made to run at for water temps...have to check the manual...seemed to trigger the "safe mode" at 200?F....normally trial riding would see 175-185?F temps.
And I think I can put an electric start in it....mounting it under the engine to the bottom of my engine mount plate :) Pull starting is a piece of cake though.....what a difference over the CR500 engine! One pull (2 maybe if it's been sitting for a LONG period of time (overnight).
I want to change the weights in the clutch so that it engages sooner as it only engages around 5000 rpm....its got gobs of power to handle a lower engagement and it'll make for easier tight trail driving and quieter putting around :)
I spaced the discs on the Supertrapp apart with small washers and it runs fine now...I'm going to see if I can remove a couple and see if it quiets it more and still run fine.
Lost a fair bit of capacity in the tank :( from what it was...it's about 25 litres now..still bigger than the stock pilot tank. I need to figure out the circuitry for the low fuel sensor too.....it didn't measure as a open/close sensor when immersed/removed from fluid...so not sure what's up with that yet either.
But it runs...and runs right..did I mention that?! LOL
You can grab a handful of holy shit in a hurry now! PERFECT! :) I have to check the slipper clutch...It spun the tires on pavement a few times...wheelied acouple times....other times...don't know if it spun or slipped the clutch... :P
Ted...we need to find you a sled engine now!
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Brilliant!
I knew you just needed to ride the thing - when you said you'd sort out the 600 before selling it I figured you'd then want to keep it!
So it's got a power band and all that stuff? When do we get photos of the pipe?
This is good!!
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Yup! It rips now!!! I'll try and take some pictures soon ;)
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Well...this thing is a blast now! If anyone wants more power....this is the way to go ;) :shock:
I changed springs and weights and dropped the engagement on Friday and played with it a bit since. BIG difference. It now engages around 3600rpm. Much more "trailable" It won't burnout on the pavement anymore LOL and it's just shy of lifting the front as is. But the acceleration is wicked. I don't think top speed is any higher as I don't take it past ~8000 rpm, not sure of the overall ratio of the sled clutches....If I were to race it I'd change the spring, have to see if there's one between the red one I put in and the yellow I took out. The stock weigths were 49 grams, I replaced them with 49.5 gram ones...but the bigger dfference would have been the ones in there were worn - had flat spots on them, holding it from engaging longer. Changing the weights and springs can be done with the clutch on, and accessed from the side of the pilot. Nice and slick!
I have to go to a larger rad though. If I run it hard, the rad won't keep up and the temps go over 190?F, then the ECU puts the engine in "limp" mode, richening the mixture....
I have an electric start kit for it now, I think I found a spot to mount that ;) That'll involve pulling the engine, so I have to wait until the novelity of it running wears off :P
I think I'll still sell it though when I get all the things done to it I want. I'll clean up the frame, paint it and install my spare plastic and it'll look as good as it runs then!
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got the civic rad installed and it works great. I picked up a used dual core rad and fan for $75CDN. It's in, not pretty yet, but I'm after function first then form lol :D 8)
The test run Thursday night, it rarely needed the fan on ;)
The throttle response on this thing is.......funny!? lol It'll use WOT when needed, but it takes only a touch of throttle to maintain 8400-8500 rpm when up to speed. :shock: 8)
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Merry Christmas one and all!
Yes I am alive! :P Been battling some health issues that have tied me up and kept me from visiting and posting for awhile now. Think I'm on the way out of a dark hole, I have some surgery to contend with yet in the new year sometime, hope that fixes me up right ;)
Anyhoo....
I had to tear the 600 engine apart, finally did it last night. It's been sitting for months now with a bad crank. And I mean BAD!!! The friggin' thing's broke in two! the pin for the lower rod bearing snapped just inside the crank lobe.
Good new is, what an EASY engine to work on!!!! I had the pull start already off and had the local AC shop pull the clutch and flywheel 'cause I didn't bother making tools for that yet. So with those removed, sitting on the bench I had the crank out in ~30 minutes! Nice and easy! So I'm ordering a crank and hope to have it running for Christmas. The only thing we can figure is it was flawed as a casting.....weird :?
Well, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I prolly still won't be on too much, but I hope you all have a Merry Christmas and a healthy and happy new year.
Brian
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Glad to hear to are getting better. Anything we can do for you, just ask(other than installing the new crank, LOL). Hope you and yours have a good holiday too.
Gary
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It's great to hear from you Brian.
Hope all the health stuff goes as well as it can. It sucks when outside things get in the way of what we love to do but when you come out the other side it will be fun to get back into it.
Have a merry christmas - and pass that on to Ted too!
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Had to replace the pistons as they were cracked from the crank splitting in two :( Got the 2nd piston today so hopefully I'll start the rebuild tonight.
In reply to Odyknuck's post:
I'm running both Arctic Cat clutches, I have yet to fab and install a support for the driven :oops: :P No ill effects yet. It wasn't much of an issue, so I'll say worth it. I have acquired a couple junked driven pilot clutches so I'm going to make up another one or two adapters. I'm starting to think about doing up one of the other 2 pilots with a ZR engine. I'm playing with an electric start kit now, hopefully that works out. I absolutely love the EFI, starts so easy, runs great and I don't worry about jetting. I haven't needed to adjust the EFI with the boondocker with the stock pipe and the slight modification to it's elbow....I'm trying to find out what the trouble has been with running dual pipes on the EFI, they make them for the carb'd zr600, but say they do not run well on the EFI.....If I can go dual pipes I think I can gain tank capacity back that we had to cut out to fit the stock Y-pipe in.
Maybe next week I'll get some footage of the FL600R against Ted's FL400R!
I'm making some new roofs for our pilots to hold 3 lights (two 35Watt and one center 55Watt) as well as an interior light to help when doing up harnesses in the dark of night ;)
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2nd ZR600EFI engine arrived last Friday :) And parts are starting to trickle in for the 3rd one :P :D Time to make some mounting kits,and clutch adapters ;) The Black Magic dual pipes arrived too...it's Christmas all over again!!! lol
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@#$%@#$%^$ ran out of mig gas :twisted: :evil: :roll: :lol:
Almost have the duals done and no way to go get gas until this evening...oh well. Been awhile since I posted an pictures.
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How does the additional piping lengths effect engine performance. What method did you use to determine if it will work right. It is my understanding that changing the length of the pipe from the exhaust manifold to the expansion chamber effects the top end Horsepower and top RPM.
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I did not alter the pipe lengths. I cut pie shaped pieces out where need and placed them ojn the opposite side I cut them from in orde to make my bends. This keeps the lengths and the diameters the same. As for how works...dunno yet...I RAN OUT OF GAS LOL I did have it started different times though, those FMF silencers work GOOD ;) I couldn't the Q series in the time frame I wanted, I guess they're even better?!
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Wel, I got a new bottle of mig gas and finished the pipes. I like the look and the sound ;) I now have clearance between the pipeand the seat back. :) All I have left to do is to swap out the ECU for one that I have already installed the black magic chip....then ride and test it out....
Oh I should pull the engine and swap out the stator too. I've read on the Arctic Cat forum that these engines are known to failure due to the stator. the engine will start and run fine but it will break down at higher RPMS . I am thinking that this is what I have had experienced and thought it was a rev limiter. the solution is to drill a few holes in the stator housing and or and washers behind the pull start casing. If this is done than there seems to be no more issues with the stator.
I was going to record a short video clip with my pilot clip with it is running so you could hear what it sounds like but it is already one am and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate me starting it now :shock: :P :lol:
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Lude
Can you be more specific and a little more clear on what the stator issue and fix is ?
You been drinking ?
I have and I didn't understand a word you wrote :shock: :shock: :shock:
Can you post a link to the Cat forum discussion ?
Later
Dennis
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Lude
Can you be more specific and a little more clear on what the stator issue and fix is ?
You been drinking ?
I have and I didn't understand a word you wrote :shock: :shock: :shock:
Can you post a link to the Cat forum discussion ?
Later
Dennis
LOL what part didn't you understand :P
the EFI ZR's/ZL's have a bogging problem that can be due to the stator failing because it gets too hot. Solution, get it rewound or buy an new one or known good used one, then drill some holes in the stator housing (the aluminium bolt on piece, and/or space the pull start case out with some washers. Anything to let more airflow in there. Then it's a none issue I guess.
http://www.arcticchat.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27284
Hope you make sense out of this post :P
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320081627755&rd=1,1
Looks quite interesting :)
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Lude
I have and I didn't understand a word you wrote :shock: :shock: :shock:
LOL what part didn't you understand :P
LOL - It was mostly this...
"the solution is to drill a few holes in the state are having and or and washers behind the pull start casing."
Without my beer goggles and your cat link it all makes sense now :D
What exactly is the "Shockwave Adjuster" suppose to do for the new driven ?
Later
Dennis
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ROFLMAO...I didn't even notice that :P Must have done that post with voice recognition :lol:
http://www.shockwaveperformance.com/ It's basically a variable helix for the secondary, should make tuning the secondary cheaper and faster, infinite helix angles in one piece ;)
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played with the pilot a bit a couple days ago. Got the boondocker unit hooked up and it made quite a difference! :shock: There still seems to be something cutting the spark out intermittently at above ~7200-7500...the digatron (spark plug tach pickup) rpm bounces badly up there, the Boondocker sits at a much steadier rpm (from ecu, crank sensor rpm) I'm thinking the coil or wires, plugs? may be bad???
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Brian it would appear that your rear wheels are missaligned. When the front wheels leave the ground your verring to the left pretty good.
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The road looks wet, is it? If so I am amazed, :shock: any idea what revs the clutch engages at, I think mine is about 4000.
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Brian it would appear that your rear wheels are missaligned. When the front wheels leave the ground your verring to the left pretty good.
Tire pressure was the main culprit there, plus I have some bent lower arms in the rear that I plan to replace soon ;)
The road looks wet, is it? If so I am amazed, Shocked any idea what revs the clutch engages at, I think mine is about 4000.
Yeah the road was wet, it was actually misting a bit, I didn't think the tires would hook up, but they did ;)
I think as is I'm engaging at ~4500-4700 rpm. Great for fast launches, not great for trail riding. I want to go back down to the stock red spring up front and see how it performs now that it has more of it's "oomppphh" back :P I think the red spring brings me down to ~3700...that's with 49 gram, weights in.
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Very impressive Brian! It was worth the 15+minutes of dial-up down loading...LOL. I now have some new found motivation to get started on mine. I have been very busy then just too lazy when I have time.
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This thing is SOOO much fun to drive now! What a blast! It took a lot of time and reowrking things to get everything to fit and work well together, there's a few minor things I want to change, but all-in-all, I feel it's a great success.
Being able to pull the front up when coming over a rise, doing ~15mph and cracking the throttle...man, what a feeling! I can't describe it well enough....I've had a pretty much built as built can get 400, had an ATVR CR500 that was ported....this is a world above both of those....and if you sell off what you don't need from the stock setup, it costs about the same as a CR500 conversion, and WAY ore power, eight years newer engine technology, EFI (BIG PLUS!! :)). I'm so glad I took on this project, I've had my doubts along the way....no more though, it's well worth it. A friend drove it, and is now buying our spare pilot and we're putting a 600 in it. Ted's is in the prcess of being stripped down for the install of a 600 in it. I can't wait to have 3 pilots running with 600's in them!
I am going to build parts up for an additional 600 setup. I'm going to build an extra engine mounting plate, an extra exhaust, and I think I may have enough parts for an extra engine (it may be a 500, same engine, different cylinders and pistons only, can be swapped for 600 parts). So I may eBay a kit and see how that goes. I'm going to have a couple tanks copied...I'll wait to see how they turn out and their cost, I may offer the tank as an option or the user can just install a spun aluminium tank.
Going to take the transmission apart from the spare pilot and get some one piece shafts made up to fit the AC drive clutches. I'll have some adapters made up if someone wants to go that route; easier, quicker, cheaper, but not as strong, though mine is holding up well.
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Very impressive, Brian! That's what i've been hoping to see. Thanks for posting the video.
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The video footage I want is the pilot going down a large hill, then going up the next, cresting and wheeling off the crest! That's impressive....it really blew me away. normally we go the other way and jump up/off the long uphill....now it's more fun going the other way :lol: I couldn't believe it the first time, it really freaked me out! So then I HAD to try it again, and again, and again LOL Too slow, and it would break loose....hit the hill doing 20-40km/h and crack it just before the top and WOW! Up she comes and stays up only due to power, let off a bit and DOWN.
Like I said...SOOO much fun!
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Going to pull the engine tonight and start duplicating the engine mount.
Then make a new set of duals up.
Mark up the fuel tank with desires changes so it fits with the pipes better and get a few of those made up.
Make up some clutch shaft support plates
While the pilots are down, it's time to finish up some suspension projects, rebuild the front end of one pilot, and fab up some bumpers and nerfs.
FUN FUN!
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Cool....
Hey I've been redoing my 670 engine mount and I'm currious how you went about securing the back of yours to the frame or tranny...
Checked your photo album but didn't see any shots of it...
Show me yours and I'll so ya mine :shock:
Anyhow can you post a pict of it... 8)
Later
Dennis
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will try to do so tonight ;)
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I didn't get out last night....hopefully later this afternoon ;)
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Sorry Dennis, I forgot about this. I don't have a picture yet...but I should take some soon as I'm in the process of fabbin' a few of them up now ;)
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Crap
I went to work last night and installed mine and mounted the motor also...
I was going to take some picts first - oh well I can still get some w/motor installed if need be
I'm not in any hurry for the images - was just going to compare motor mount plate ideas....
Later
Dennis
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Cool, I'll take some and post or PM them to you when I get a chance ;)
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Been awhile, so here's an update:
Been playing/tweaking as time allows. Went backwards on my tuning. Ended up that bad plugs (screw on tips#$#$#$) were the culprit, and dummy me, never saved a copy of my EFI map settings...there's 5! no reason I couldn't have saved a copy and played with another
:evil: :roll: During that, it backfired and cracked corners off 2 reed petals..that engine had V-force reeds in it...they're coming out and stockers are going back in.
Been doing a bit of clutching....toned down the launch with a softer drive spring. It'll still pick the front up....I'm surprised it'll do it in fields even :)
I have a few more things to clean up on the engine...thought I had my components picked out for the ac to dc conversion...but saw my rectifier smoking yesterday :roll: And have a couple circuits to change so they're switched through the electric start key switch.
I've found what I think I'll run for ever for lighting..WOW! 2 lights, more light than I've ever had, and less draw....and crazy expensive either. I'll post more on that after more time has been put on them, so far though...love them. PS Ted got you a set too.....think you'll love 'em ;)
Playing with the suspension a lot as of late. Sold the ELKAs and swapped in FOX air 2.5's. Learning a lot on bump steer LOL Thing just won't turn...yet :P
Pilot's going to get new pipes made up, so I'll be delivering to Mad Fabricating Thursday night after work. Gotta keep up with the jones' and their pipes! LOL
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I have been wondering how it's going for your conversion. Thanks for the update.
As far as turning, what back tires are you running? I noticed a great change for the better when I changed to a less aggressive tire. Less forward bite = better steering. Also, I would recommend checking rear wheel toe. Very important on my Pilots, 400 and 600. The final thing I did was use 4 bathroom scales to set corner weights.
Between those 3 things, I experienced a world of difference in my turning ability.
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I have been wondering how it's going for your conversion. Thanks for the update.
As far as turning, what back tires are you running? I noticed a great change for the better when I changed to a less aggressive tire. Less forward bite = better steering. Also, I would recommend checking rear wheel toe. Very important on my Pilots, 400 and 600. The final thing I did was use 4 bathroom scales to set corner weights.
Between those 3 things, I experienced a world of difference in my turning ability.
I'm running Titan 489AT's 24x11x10's I've really like them.
Check the rear toe...now I've read conflicting advise on this, wht did you end up finding worked? In or out and how much. I'm leaning towards out as that makes sense to me to make the rear loose, and in on the front.
How did you adjust for corner weight? Add what where?
I know I need to make changes to my pivot point mounts, they're just not allowing the outside wheel to turn much at all, so it's really fighting the inside rather than helping, and with the softer rear suspension, there's no weight transfer off the inside rear at low speeds, so the rear wants to push the front straight.
Your engines output your lighting/accessories in AC as well? You convert that? If so what are you running?
Thanks ;)
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If those tires steered well on your 400, they should work well with your 600. The Holeshots that I had to take off to steer had the same effect on my 400.
Toe in on the rear wheels. How many degrees, I can't say. Not much, though. Toe out is very bad in my experience on the outside tire in a corner. Makes the car want to go straight. Toe out seems to help when it's on the inside tire. If I were running an oval, I would run toe out on the left rear, and toe in on the right rear, but I like to be able to turn both ways, so I have just a touch of toe in on both sides.
I have the weight jackers that my friend talked me into adding when I needed to raise my front shock mounts. Here's a "not so good" picture of them.
http://www.downhomeracing.com/opr/pic273.jpg
Other wise, you may be able to adjust nitrogen pressure if you have an imbalance. Not sure on that, though.
The only light we have hooked up is the tail/brake light. I don't have any idea whether the "Skid_doo" uses AC or DC. You would have to ask AtvNut.
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The Skidoo use AC to power everything unless you have Electric Start. Then it needs the regulator with a DC charging output for the Battery
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the dc you get for the electric start (on the ACts anyhow) i only a diode, clipping the AC, and trickle charging the battery. It was just enough to keep the battery charged, and run the fan.....but I want to convert the full AC lighting/acc output to DC.
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If those tires steered well on your 400, they should work well with your 600. The Holeshots that I had to take off to steer had the same effect on my 400.
Toe in on the rear wheels. How many degrees, I can't say. Not much, though. Toe out is very bad in my experience on the outside tire in a corner. Makes the car want to go straight. Toe out seems to help when it's on the inside tire. If I were running an oval, I would run toe out on the left rear, and toe in on the right rear, but I like to be able to turn both ways, so I have just a touch of toe in on both sides.
I have the weight jackers that my friend talked me into adding when I needed to raise my front shock mounts. Here's a "not so good" picture of them.
http://www.downhomeracing.com/opr/pic273.jpg
Other wise, you may be able to adjust nitrogen pressure if you have an imbalance. Not sure on that, though.
The only light we have hooked up is the tail/brake light. I don't have any idea whether the "Skid_doo" uses AC or DC. You would have to ask AtvNut.
weight jackers? can't make anything out in the pic...what are they?
i was running my lights in AC, and that was fine, but i missed the lights on with the key option, instead of only with the engine running. Plus I need more DC for...well..DC applications :P
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Brian, I would think a voltage regulator off of a Harley Davidson would do the job. I believe the stator on your AC is a 2 wire single phase unit.
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I have regulator from a FORD, works fine...it's the rectifier that was smoking! :?
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weight jackers? can't make anything out in the pic...what are they?
They are threaded rod through an upper bracket to allow adjustment to the upper shock location. some pics from KiowA's site:
url 1 (http://www.pilot-odyssey.com/pilot-odyssey/home.nsf/fc5d243c1a3f37c885256875004374e3/C6F42A9F222631AA0525713200593292/$FILE/00000002_small.jpg)
url 2 (http://www.pilot-odyssey.com/pilot-odyssey/home.nsf/fc5d243c1a3f37c885256875004374e3/C6F42A9F222631AA0525713200593292/$FILE/00000003_small.jpg)
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The Harly Regulator is Regulator/Rectifier in one package. 2 wires to the stator 1 wire to your battery. Good to go.
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The Harly Regulator is Regulator/Rectifier in one package. 2 wires to the stator 1 wire to your battery. Good to go.
sweet..that's what i want then....I looked before on eBay for them....but didn't know what was what, what model to get...know of a model number or something for me?
OK, the weight jackers :? I haven't played with weight transfer at all...if you lower the front shock mounts (raising the front, increasing ground clearance), you're achieving what, reducing front weight?
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Brian if you want i can oder one direct from one of my suppliers and ship it to you. I own a Harley shop on the side. Can you tell me what the voltage is at 2500 RPM out of your stator so I can match you up with the right one. Also verify its a 2 wire output.
Steve
Cyclefab
216-695-0733
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OK, the weight jackers I haven't played with weight transfer at all...if you lower the front shock mounts (raising the front, increasing ground clearance), you're achieving what, reducing front weight?
The thought was to use them to figure out where we wanted the mounts, as we weren't sure at what height to locate them, as well as a way to lower the front for playing on the ice. Now, they seem most valuable as a way to equalize the corner weights. I'm not sure we could have welded the mounts to distribute the weight perfectly. Now, a few turns, voila!
Once we beef up the threaded rod, trim the length, and paint, they will look better. But to be truthful, after working with them, they look just fine as they are, to me. Function over form has always been my motto!
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Brian if you want i can oder one direct from one of my suppliers and ship it to you. I own a Harley shop on the side. Can you tell me what the voltage is at 2500 RPM out of your stator so I can match you up with the right one. Also verify its a 2 wire output.
Steve
Cyclefab
216-695-0733
Cool, it is a two wire..well two yellows AC/AC and a brown=ground that match? :) How dead on do I have to be at the RPM and voltage reading?
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It does not have to be exact. I just need a range to determin the best one for the application. Get close and then run the motor until the voltage maxs out.
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Thanks, I didn't get a chance to get a reading before I dropped it off to get some new pipes made up for mine and Ted's...Darrell wants to run the 2 into 1, so he'll prolly get my current fuel tank to go with it as we're changing the tank and pipe design, yet again :roll: :lol: Everything's gone through a few metamorphsis stages, but that how things improve I guess, learn a little bit each time, having different people help out/perform work on it help too, fresh eyes=fresh ideas.
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Hope to pick up the pilot with new pipes, and tank on Friday :D Can't wait....then it's shock tuning time, and get the wiring cleaned up.
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pickup date keeps getting pushed back, now it's set for later today :roll: anxiously awaiting that call "come and get it" :D :P Good things take time though, and this is an install/setup that I take pride in knowing I've put the run time in on it to know what needs, can, and should be improved. And that's what I'll do. If I ever publicly offer my setup as a kit for sale you can be assured it's been tried tested and improved. It's going to go through 4 installs on 4 separate pilots and have at least 10 hours run time on each machine, plus the last year of running mine, with over 50 hours of run time on it, with no install related failures. There's some issues that I want to improve/change that I only see now after extended run time, and some other items that I want to tidy up that I haven't got to yet. My apologies goes out to those that have expressed interest in my setup, sorry that I haven't got things finalized yet. My priorities go to my family and their needs first, I wish I had more time to dedicate to this, but I get to it when I can, I love doing it, and wish I could just work at it full time....but for now it is what it is... a slow process :roll: :wink:
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Brian, I would think a voltage regulator off of a Harley Davidson would do the job. I believe the stator on your AC is a 2 wire single phase unit.
Thanks, I got a couple used ones from a local Harley guy to try out for free :lol: So we'll see how that works out.
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Cool, let me know how they work out
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neither one worked for me :( I'll try and measure the AC voltage output today. I'm thinking the untis I tried are rated to high in amperage :? ?? At idle I got at most... 4 volts...when rev'd...it went to zero :? :? They might have just been bad too...dunno. I know I was getting over 20 volts AC from the stator....guy said the Harley's can produce more than 50 volts AC...quite sure the Cat don't make that.
The new fuel tank and pipes are works of art. The new fuel tank is one some other people may be interested in as an auxilary tank for any pilot setup, you'd have to run a fuel pump and fill the stock tank through the return line into the stock tank I think though as it sits low in the frame, and improves the handling of the pilot dramatically ;), and holds 4.5 gallons of fuel. My oil tank is now separate and is mount to one of the rear roll bar tubes, triangular in shape, and holds almost a gallon of oil I think.
It's been so crazy hot here that I haven't got much done, I'm not used to this muggy hot weather, it really zaps the energy from ya...and I've had terrible luck with vehicles the last couple weeks...still got more repairs looming there :( Hopefully we can get some testing/tuning in today so I can get some feedback for Colin (Mad Fabrication) before he starts the 2nd set next week.
I'll try and get some pictures of the new setup on here as well ;)
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ZR600 EFI 1990 Honda Pilot Transplant -Test and Tune
Here's some clips from the day of testing and tuning we had on Saturday. (http://p-o-ps.com/pops/gallery/displayimage.php?album=68&pos=9) (double click the video when playing to open in Windows Media Player Full screen)
Had some issues with cracked V-force reeds (they were in it when it was purchased) that made tuning in the morning futile.
Waited for the weather to cool off some, and went back out around 5pm, tuning went much better. I didn't spend much time at it, as I wanted to just get it running decent and let Ted have some seat time. I had 5 fuel maps that I pre-programmed and just went with the best of the 5 and didn't bother trying to better it any. After a year of running, the 1 into 2 throttle cable junction that I modified decided to act up (the pilot cable end kept pulling out of the block) and after 5 or 6 times of sticking it back together, I jimmied it and it held together to allow about 2 hours of hard running with about 3 (totaling 15 minutes) breaks to inspect things, switch drivers and give it a chance to cool off a bit. The battery maintained 11 volts, running the fan constantly, and only using the trickle charge setup from the electric start kit.
It topped out yesterday at 111km/hr with 24x11x10 489XT rear tires on, at 8120rpm. I have previously topped out at 121km/hr with the other pipes, there's more to gain from some fine tuning of the EFI map and some cooler, drier air. It's been SOOO hot and muggy here it was hard to get anything done this weekend.
Enjoy the clips ;) [/b]
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Thought I'd post a copy of the write-up I posted on P-O.com about the install I've done, where it is to date, what's left to improve and finalize
Honda Pilot ZR600EFI transplant highlights
Included items
? Engine mount plate
? Electric start kit
? Honda civic rad
? Mounts for rad
? Modified brake caliper mounting bolt
? 2 into 1 throttle cable junction
? Adapter shaft for transmission to accept Arctic Cat driven clutch
? OEM AC belt
? Mount for air temp sensor
? Barometric sensor is maintained in the ECU
? ECU mount
? New battery mount
? Uni filter dual stage air filters and Outerwear air filter socks
? Oil injection tank and mounts 3.75 liter capacity
? Fuel tank and mounts ? 4.5 gallons including reserve (user adjustable main cut out level)
? Electrical harness pieces to allow OEM pilot kill switch to control engine shutoff
? 2 spring/weight combinations (trail and racing)
In development/testing
? Pilot low fuel light tie in
? ZR low injection oil level ?limp mode? trigger tie in
? Full DC charging pilot harness tie in
? Modified rear brake setup ? performance not install related
Optional
? Rear bumper ? protects silencer
? EFI fuel map control box ? allows adding or subtracting fuel from/to the OEM fuel map at 5 rpm ranges, with 3 load ranges at each rpm range. 5 different maps can be stored for different conditions.
? Choice of floating or fixed driven clutch setup
? Auxiliary fuel tanks in old location around seat
Features
? Drive clutch springs can be changed without clutch removal
? Drive clutch can be removed without removing the engine
? Driven clutch can be removed without removing transmission
? Requires removal of OEM pilot rad mounts, and battery box mount
? No welding required for installation
? Improves steering characteristics
? No jetting/tuning required (users may wish to further enhance performance via the EFI control box and their own personal testing/tuning) the EFI/ECU setup automatically adjusts the air/fuel mixture ratio for variations in altitude, air temperature, barometric pressure, and water temperature. If the engine begins to run too hot (over 190?F) it triggers a ?limp mode? (drastically richer mixture) to protect the engine, yet allow you to get home.
? Very quick starting ? easy to pull start, only 2 pulls when cold or something?s wrong
? Choice of engines ZR500, ZR600 (same bottom ends) EFI engines
? Electric start is an option on the ZR600; some issues have been recorded by sledders with having the electric start motor mounted under the exhaust so a new location was designed on the engine mount plate. It utilizes a different model Arctic Cat snowmobile electric start kit, resulting in a simpler electric start setup and a location away from the exhaust heat
Development/Testing Regime/results
? Over 50 hours of actual run time in varied terrain
? Tank mounts modified
? Exhaust mounts redesigned
? Exhaust redesigned
? Tank redesigned
? Switched from Pilot radiator to civic radiator/fan
? Modified driven input shaft design to allow for driven removal
? Real life testing of suggested helix angles on the driven clutch, driven springs and tension.
? Real life testing of suggested springs and weights on the drive clutch
? 2 basic clutch spring/weight setups chosen
? Testing of 4 different pipe configurations
Drawbacks of design
? Silencer is outside of frame ? can be hit/damaged (custom rear bumper can be used to protect it)
? Requires OEM Pilot rad bar to be cut out and a straight bar welded in, or at minimum, the removal of the OEM rad mount tabs/brackets
? Requires drilling several holes in various frame tube locations for tech rivets for bracket mounts
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I'm really happy with the new tank design and location. I really need to get a decent camera and take some pictures and update the blog gallery with some current pictures :shock:
The tank holds 4.5 gallons, and is located in the foot well. It looks much like the aluminum foot well covers PMS makes. It affects foot room very slightly ( I wear size 12/13, so I notice a bit of change). Two rubber mounts are added to the cross bar and the two front tub mounts are utilized as well. The tank sits on the floor, and it's center section lays between your feet, then rises up and "T's" out to either side above your feet. We need to find a slim line fuel cap to use, the Cam-loc cap looks out of place sticking up there. And add a bit of a spoiler lip off the top back edge for cosmetic only, as well as some side pieces that will lay over the side fenders slightly to overlap any gap between the tank and the plastic.
The pipes mount with spring on the manifolds and rubber mounts on the rear angled roll bar supports, and then into the silencer/muffler. Their volume's are within 2-3% of each other and ony one side varies a bit in the stinger length. I have not seen any difference yet side to side while doing plug chops. The duals definitely make a bold visual statement ;)
The silencer is actually an automotive muffler....I've never seen one this short before! Colin actually took a piece of stainless and wrapped the muffler to give it a cleaner look and added a stainless turnout on the bottom. It bolts onto the OEM silencer guard mounts.
He also made a oil injection tank that mounts to one of the rear roll cage support tubes and the OEM rad support cross tube. It's angled to match the cage support tube, which turn out makes it nicer to pour into as well.
I was supposed to drop off candidate #2 tonight, but I've been feeling like crap the last few days, our youngest was up-chucking last night with high fever too - so there's something going around here, just hope it's not the mumps! - that's going around too!!! Please no! :cry: Anyhow hopefully over the weekend I can get one dropped off there for Colin to start on. I need to rob Ted's front bumper as I want to use it as a starting place for a new front bumper for mine, and make a up a new rear bumper as well. I've got a hitch ball mounted on Ted's now and a coupler on my trailer that I now use instead of tie straps.
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Brian with the tank in the front I would think your steering would tend to plow more due to weight distribution. The handling would also change as the tank emptys.
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I wasn't sure what would happen, and only have limited time on it so far, But so far I like it. Even the rear tank empties and changes weight distribution.....
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Yes the rear tank emptys out however it has less effect on how the front end pushs verses the extra 40 + pounds in the front. Do you also have your battery up there? How does the front end act on a jump. Does it tend to be nose heavey?
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I left my battery in the rear. I am just now getting my fox shox setup, so I'm hoping to get some jumping in soon and I'll report on if it noses heavy or not. The extra front weight makes it corner better, it doesn't seem to add push...but take away from it. It plants the front better and allows the rear to follow the front and come out on demand.
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Thats good to hear. I know alot of guys have put there batterys up front to change the weight bias to help with the push, however like anything there is a limit to were it does more harm than good.
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Yes I agree and was concerned about that, that concern has dwindled, and hopefully will be all gone after some more seat time.
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Working on the install of the 2nd 600 ;) This one will run the stock exhaust (modified only slightly to fit). So it will be nice to have it up and running to have two to compare with.
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Some pictures of the new pipes and tank ;)
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youtube clips - clips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xacuGpjtcGo)
Running without the Boondocker hooked up, an d ~4 gallons of fuel in front mounted tank.
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some newer pics
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Agreed both tanks empty and change the weight distribution. If the tank is put where the greater mass is it has less affect as a whole on the handling of the machine 40lbs of the front of the machine would prob be 30% of the front end weight 40lbs of the rear would prob only be about 15% of the weight of rear of the machine hence a lot less effect. As the rear is lightened traction is decreased thus if there is a push when full it may go away as the tank empties. As the tank empties the handling should improve as the weight bias to the front would increase.
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Agreed.
With the increased power the added weight up front is welcomed though. It's no problem to lift the front even with a full tank up front. And even though it gets lighter as it empties, it's still more weight up front than having the tank in the rear.
I've had both installed on the same machine with the same suspension, both worked fine. I think a bit better handling with the front mounted tank, but the larger 1st generation rear tank setup handled fine too.
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I think the machines are looking great. I like the new silencer set-up.
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So if I am seeing this right, your tank also serves as your hood? HOW COOL!!!! That should have been a "Hood"lum design if I ever saw one....
Hoodlum
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So if I am seeing this right, your tank also serves as your hood? HOW COOL!!!! That should have been a "Hood"lum design if I ever saw one....
Hoodlum
Hey! You're not the only one with good ideas :P [/u]