Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum
General Category => Pilot FL400R => Topic started by: Hailwood on March 09, 2012, 07:46:34 PM
-
New to the forum and did check the search function. Looking for some info on rebuilding the lowerend. List of parts-seals, gaskets, bearings ect. I know some of the parts are not available anymore and can cross bearings ect. Are the Athena gasket sets good or does Cometic offer a full lower and top end set. any tricks or tips would be appreciated. I have the paper manual being shipped as I type. Any help would be greatly appreciated in the form of an email or posted here. Sorry if it has been covered but if it has in one thread please send me in that direction. Anyone in the NJ/PA Stockton New Hope area on here?
I also forgot, any special tools that are needed. I am a motorcycle mechanic so I have a lot of tools but nothing Pilot specific, I also have access to a car shop and all their tools but will order any thing that is needed to do the job right.
-
You can also download a PDF version of the manual off this page: http://aftershockmotorsports.com/Honda-FL400R-Pilot
I personally prefer Athena gaskets over Cometic. My dislike for Cometic primarily comes from their head gasket for the FL350 Odyssey and have never seen their Pilot gaskets. You need a flywheel puller, a clutch puller and a very deep 41mm socket. I see Adnoh uses a tool sort of like a crows foot for the 41mm nut. You also need a case splitter tool which I would think you would have.
-
what is the 41 used for and thanks for the response.
-
what is the 41 used for and thanks for the response.
It is used for the left hand thread lock nut on the left side of the crank....IYou will also need a means of pulling the crank through the bearings during re-assembly that will not put any stress on the bearings....I guess you probably know about heating the cases when installing the new bearings?
-
yeah, cases in the oven and bearings in the freezer!!! Ill look at the manual and make a tool list. is the clutch tool basically the threaded rod like for a go kart?
-
You can use a Ski Doo clutch puller for TRA and a small solid rod of sorts...for the stocker. I also would reccomend Athena over Cometic all day long...Cometic base gasket is VERY thin and head gasket is Very thick...nowhere near the correct thicknesses for correct stock rebuild. Athena and Vesrah seem to have the best replacement AM gasket set for Pilot. Buy a NEW Reverse Thread lock-nut for the crank...just ordered a bunch of bearings and seals and they are not as unavailable as some places may make you think. If you are in powersports the rest of the stuff you will need are basics like a gear jammer...if you cant come up with a flywheel puller I could send mine on lend for you.
The connecting rod on this build will be difficult to come up with if you look for a FL Rod...not sure at this point if they exist. The choice rod to put in its place is a CR 500 Rod...which has to be modded. Top width is too wide for the pilot piston. Crossroads...some guys narrow the rod...I kept the top FAT and customized my piston.
The only other do dad you may need other than the pilot specific stuff is a simple two or three jaw gear puller...my primary drive gear was stubborn releasing from the crank spline.
-
I have pullers for the clutch and flywheel. They are not listed on the site yet. I am in the middle of a software upgrade on a backup copy and if I added items to the site, it would all have to be redone after flipping the site over to the new version.
My own personal set of Pilot tools were stolen when my shop was broke into. All the specialty tools were in a small portable tools box. On the last Pilot bottom end I did, I had to get new ones of everything. I had made these up previously:
http://aftershockmotorsports.com/Honda-FL350R-Odyssey/Tools/Crank-Nut-Socket
I cut one and added about an inch into it to use on the Pilot. I will just make the next batch 1" longer to begin with.
-
Here is mine...It is a 1 5/8" socket and fits the nut perfectly.....It is 1" drive.....I took an 11/16" deep well impact socket,which measured 1" od,stuck it in the drive hole of the big socket,and welded it up....Cost was around $20....
-
Nice tool Hoodlum.
-
Flywheel puller
(http://aftershockmotorsports.com/images/medium/pilot-flywheel-puller_MED.jpg) (http://www.aftershockmotorsports.com/Honda-FL400R-Pilot/Tools/Flywheel-Puller)
Clutch puller
(http://aftershockmotorsports.com/images/medium/pilot-stock-clutch-puller_MED.jpg) (http://www.aftershockmotorsports.com/Honda-FL400R-Pilot/Tools/Puller-for-Stock-Clutch)
-
More cool tools.
-
Was trying to remember this...there was one more notable mention about the CR500 Rod. The parts that came with the Pro-X rod kit I used...I think were slightly different than the FL pin and parts. Which made a few rebuild measurements very important. The width of the crank must be spec. to what it came out at. (provided it was not badly twisted or damaged upon engine dissasemble) The width of the old mains AND new mains installed from side to side must be measured. Especially important if you decide to lap your center cases...sounds silly but the width of the center case gasket will even effect this measurement. You must take into consideration the differences in the rod side clearance specs between th FL manual and the CR manual...because they are different by a few thousands.
At the time I was able to get a FL pin,washers,and bearing and I am pretty sure I used them and was able to get the rod side clearance, and crank width right on the money. Also pay particular attention to RUNOUT as this engine drives a CVT system and could be 100% RUINED if you run it with a twisted crank.
-
Good and important info Factory 45.
-
Yes sir!!!! I got a crank (paper weight) on my bench right now that was put together .007 wider than stock....Didn't notice it till 2 bearings and 2 rebuilds later....That freakn thing will fry a main in about 30min run time....Got to get that fixed real soon...I like to carry a spare lower end to St.Joes....
-
thanks everyone for your imput, it has been quite helpful. im going to get my list together this weekend or early next week and get started. whats your guess on time, what would a dealership charge in labor for the job?
-
thanks everyone for your imput, it has been quite helpful. im going to get my list together this weekend or early next week and get started. whats your guess on time, what would a dealership charge in labor for the job?
Not sure on the dealer labor cost....I have never found one I trust to do it for me...As for time,being your first one,I would guess probably 4 hrs total time......I have gotten to the point where I can do one in about 2 hrs,but I have done several....
-
Keep that buggy ALIVE man...then MOD it...then come on a rip with us. Is it yours? Customer or friend? Nice machine? Pics?
-
Friend / customer. He has 2 that were bought in 1991 when we were in college. They are in pretty good shape and have had their share of being upside down but considering they live on a 250 acre property and had many drunken college adventures im shocked they still run. There are 2 or 3 others in the area so it would be fun to get all 4 or 5 together to rip.
-
so the play in the crank has made the stator magnets contact the electrical windings and ill need at least the flywheel with the magnets. Anyonbe have one available or know of a good aftermarket???
31100-HE0-013 complete assembly
31110-HE0-003 flywheel only, i need at least this right now i assume the windings are ok as it still charges but the think metal that covers the magnets is all torn up
Any suggestions would be great.
Also, any comments concerns with using LA Sleeve to do the sleeve and bore job?
-
I think perhaps Livewire may be able to help with the parts here...but if not there are a few guys with MEGA stashes of stuff around the boards. Welcome to OUR world of discontinued MODEL specific stuff that doesnt cross to anything. lol 4500 buggies...just remember that number :)
Did the counterbalancer make it through such a right side bearing failure without damage to the gear face, bearing, or case? If the stator is not terribly worn down...meaning the windings are not ruined or smeared together...re-use is feasable. Test each yellow leg for resistance to verify. (these are the ac charging legs leading to each grouped pack of coils) If the windings make the same path through the stator and are un damaged they will represent equally on your meter...and you are stylin.
If you strike out on a flywheel check fleabay.
-
The stator by itself is still available....The flywheels can be hard to come by.....As for the cylinder,I have had one sleeved in the past and had problems with it expanding in critical areas....Mainly the thin areas around the intake......If I were you,I would have it ni-com plated.....Best move I have ever made on a cylinder.....Close to the same money as a sleeve,but much better IMO....
-
I have never done that before...but Hood is right. All the new engines are Nikasil plated 2 and 4 stroke. Just curious Hood...which bore did you choose to stick with? Who did your plating? Was it cost efficient?
-
I have plated several cylinders for customers. I think it is a far better option than sleeving.
-
Hey factory I 'm pretty sure it was an 82mm form memory on hoods pilot cylinder. He had to get a copper gasket to correct an compression issue. He can for sure recap. I find it interesting the play ( side to tside) caused the rub. Usally a bearing failure and or a massive run out does the trick. Got pic of the rub.
-
It was an 82mm and the cylinder was ported so I didn't want to chance loseing the cylinder.....I had already tried the sleev,and it didn't work out well....Thing is,if it doesn't work,you will have a paper weight because the cylinder has to be bored large enough to accept the sleeve,and leaves the bore too large to do anything else with...They can build up the ni-com to a certain extent,but not that much....
I have been running the cylinder for 3 years now,and havn't done a thing too it....I probably need to take it apart and inspect a little,but it's still holding good compression so I havn't........
The copper gasket was not due to compression problems,but due to an experiment with bores.....If you have ever noticed,all head gaskets are cut to an 80mm bore,leaving some of the gasket hanging into the cylinder after you go larger on the piston....This was an attempt at having a gasket cut to the correct bore.....It didn't work very well....I never could get that thing to seal......
Hoodlum
-
I have had Millenium do some re-plates for me...and they are BETTER than the stock plating in most cases. I was talking about this with my machinist and almost did it to this engine...but man parts add up fast. Sometimes the turn around is weeks or over a month...now Hood you are calling it "Ni-com" is that a standard Nikasil...or some other plating similar? I almost wanna start another thread...because I wanted to put up some questions about this stuff and not trample on this topic.
-
I have had Millenium do some re-plates for me...and they are BETTER than the stock plating in most cases. I was talking about this with my machinist and almost did it to this engine...but man parts add up fast. Sometimes the turn around is weeks or over a month...now Hood you are calling it "Ni-com" is that a standard Nikasil...or some other plating similar? I almost wanna start another thread...because I wanted to put up some questions about this stuff and not trample on this topic.
Nikasil is plated directly to aluminum....New cylinders that are plated,are aluminum ground out and the plating directly to the aluminum....On cylinders thay have a cast sleeve in them,ni-com must be used because nikasil will not stick to anything other than aluminum...
By the way,check your paypal.....
-
I have had Millenium do some re-plates for me...and they are BETTER than the stock plating in most cases. I was talking about this with my machinist and almost did it to this engine...but man parts add up fast. Sometimes the turn around is weeks or over a month...now Hood you are calling it "Ni-com" is that a standard Nikasil...or some other plating similar? I almost wanna start another thread...because I wanted to put up some questions about this stuff and not trample on this topic.
Nikasil is plated directly to aluminum....New cylinders that are plated,are aluminum ground out and the plating directly to the aluminum....On cylinders thay have a cast sleeve in them,ni-com must be used because nikasil will not stick to anything other than aluminum...
By the way,check your paypal.....
Just did...thank you sir :) Sending them Monday...should see them Wednesday.
That is very good info thank you. Was curious how sleeved cyls. got plated...and if it was a similar process. The same type of rings can be used with no issues? You say you have used more than one piston in this plated bore? Between pistons did the cylinder require honing to restore the cross hatching?
I have been pondering a combo that would last the longest and this topic has somewhat transformed to this discussion...hope it is helpful. Now I know Aftershock can set guys up with a piston with the coating that provides the skirt more protection from friction...just like all Wiseco's 4 stroke shelf pistons.(If you spend some mega cake on a full race CP in the 4 stroke world it comes coated too) I have wondered if this type of piston and plated cyl. combination would make for a long life setup worth spending a lil more money on.
-
I have had Millenium do some re-plates for me...and they are BETTER than the stock plating in most cases. I was talking about this with my machinist and almost did it to this engine...but man parts add up fast. Sometimes the turn around is weeks or over a month...now Hood you are calling it "Ni-com" is that a standard Nikasil...or some other plating similar? I almost wanna start another thread...because I wanted to put up some questions about this stuff and not trample on this topic.
Nikasil is plated directly to aluminum....New cylinders that are plated,are aluminum ground out and the plating directly to the aluminum....On cylinders thay have a cast sleeve in them,ni-com must be used because nikasil will not stick to anything other than aluminum...
By the way,check your paypal.....
Just did...thank you sir :) Sending them Monday...should see them Wednesday.
That is very good info thank you. Was curious how sleeved cyls. got plated...and if it was a similar process. The same type of rings can be used with no issues? You say you have used more than one piston in this plated bore? Between pistons did the cylinder require honing to restore the cross hatching?
I have been pondering a combo that would last the longest and this topic has somewhat transformed to this discussion...hope it is helpful. Now I know Aftershock can set guys up with a piston with the coating that provides the skirt more protection from friction...just like all Wiseco's 4 stroke shelf pistons.(If you spend some mega cake on a full race CP in the 4 stroke world it comes coated too) I have wondered if this type of piston and plated cyl. combination would make for a long life setup worth spending a lil more money on.
The process I know nothing about....I think they explode some type of rod in the cylinder....I am still useing the first piston I put in it after plating....They told me that unless there is a major mechanical failure,one could expect to wear out 5 pistons before anything would have to be done to the cylinder....
As for honing,if it is needed,it does take a special hone to do so....My cylinder didn't have a cross hatch in it,but was perfectly smooth....Instead of the rings having to groove the cylinder,the coating actually forms the rings to match it instead....This wear is very minimal though,because both rings and coating are very smooth,making the abrasion level almost non-existant.......The rings do have to be chrome,but if I am not mistaken,all of wiseco's rings are chrome....
Sorry for the delay on the paypal...I have tried logging in several times this past week and it would just freeze up on the log in page.....I don't know what is up with it.....I hope it's not being hacked!!!! After I finally got in,it didn't show any strange activity so maybe it's just one of those things....
-
If you run a hone through the plated cylinder, it will scuff it up slightly. It takes off extremly little material. I have relieved the exhaust port bridge on a 350 cylinder I had plated. It was relieved .002 so I had to take another .002 off it. I used the same tool I always use, it just took a whole lot longer. Not all rings that work with cast iron bores will work, but if you look up on Wiseco's site, the TD series rings that come with the kits for the FL350R and FL400R are compatible with Nikasil cylinders.