Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum
General Category => Pilot FL400R => Topic started by: PilotSniper on July 19, 2004, 09:38:49 PM
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I've experienced this problem twice in my short Pilot life.
The first PoofKaboom was due to not knowing that the Pilot I had just purchased was set up for high octane race fuel. By using regular 93 octane fuel, it caused a premature meltdown of my piston and cylinder head (or so I was told). The end result was extensive pitting of the top of the piston, the cylinder head dome and nasty scratching of the cylinder itself.
The second time was Thursday of last week when I unexpectedly drove into Lake Okeechobee during a wide-open throttle run at night (long story). Either way, I could not maintain idle after coming out of the thigh-high water and knew immediately something was wrong. After performing a compression check after cool down and coming up with only 75lbs of compression, I confirmed my fears. Tonight, I tore her down only to find the same thing I had found when I had the unknown race fuel setup. The top of the piston and the cylinder head dome was pitted like swiss cheese. Fortunately, the cylinder itself suffered no scratching at all because I had it coated with the carbide process at Bore-Tech (in my opinion, this process is a VERY necessary must have!).
My dilemma is, I don't have any trashed bearings and my intake is filtered twice. What actually gets in between the piston and the cylinder head to cause the swiss cheese effect? Is it part of the actual piston that breaks off and causes this? Please enlighten me! :?
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Pieces of the piston, rings, wrist pin clips. They can all do it. I had a wrist pin clip come out once (not inserted correctly??) and made a MESS.
How much compression were you running? Detonation again?
Cool Carbide process works again. Gotta love it ;)
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Pieces of the piston, rings, wrist pin clips. They can all do it. I had a wrist pin clip come out once (not inserted correctly??) and made a MESS.
How much compression were you running? Detonation again?
Cool Carbide process works again. Gotta love it ;)
The rings and wrist pin clips are all there. The only thing missing is the mass from each of the little pits. Wierd!
I was running 167lbs. of compression after the rebuild with a cut down head from PCP. The PoofKaboom brought that number down to 75lbs.
Whatever happened, I hope it never happens again!
And, yes, Bore-Tech rocks!!! 8)
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I think PH got away with 170 with one of Moskito's heads. But I believe....they say 167 would be on the high (read danger) side for compresion with pump fuel. If you can't find pieces missing from other components, I'd say detonation did you in...that's just my hardly educated in 2-stroke opinion though :)
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I think PH got away with 170 with one of Moskito's heads. But I believe....they say 167 would be on the high (read danger) side for compresion with pump fuel. If you can't find pieces missing from other components, I'd say detonation did you in...that's just my hardly educated in 2-stroke opinion though :)
I remember Skeeter saying something about not going over 160 with pump fuel, but when I got the rebuild done, it read 167. I think PCP shaved a little too much on the lathe. She ran hard while she lasted, but now it's time to move on and do things right. I think I'll be going with a standard cylinder head this time around. No more shaved heads for me!
By the way, detonation is a possibility since the underside of the piston is a nice shade of toasted black! I'll post pics once I get them out of the camera.
Thank you for your hardly educated 2-stroke opinion! :lol:
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...now it's time to move on and do things right. I think I'll be going with a standard cylinder head this time around. No more shaved heads for me!
K-Fab head and interchangeable domes....or I have a couple heads that you can have, they need to be cleaned up though. I also have a PCP head that you're welcome to :P 190 psi!!
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K-Fab head and interchangeable domes....or I have a couple heads that you can have, they need to be cleaned up though. I also have a PCP head that you're welcome to :P 190 psi!!
K-Fab head = Cool! This is Skeeter's Secret Squirrel Stuff, right?
PCP 190 head = Major PoofKaboom! Nah, I'll pass!!!
I appreciate the offer on the other heads, bud, but I need to pay for my mistakes! Oh, and it looks like I'll be paying... :cry:
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Well you can pay to have them rechambered. ;)
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I ran into the same problem. After two pistons it became apparent that the crank bearing for the rod was breaking apart. I thought I had checked the travel in the bearing but after I disassembled the motor the ends of the bearings were coming off. The top of the piston looked about how you described yours. Hope this helps, if not it was fun trying.
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I wouldn't mind hearing the long story.
WOT around the lake at night. Cool.
I hope you get back up and running soon.
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johnbd, thanks for the tip. I've looked as best as I can at the lower crank bearing and all looks well.
MassOdy, it was cool until I took her down to periscope depth, then I remembered I was still in the Pilot! Next time we're out riding, bring the icy beer and I'll fill you in on the details of my escapade into "Hidden Lake". :oops:
I finally found the time to order parts and get pics out of the camera. They're in the gallery here:
http://www.p-o-ps.com/coppermine_dir/thumbnails.php?album=50
Feel free to express your thoughts as to what might have happened.
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Sorry to sound like a broken record but I looked at the pictures you posted and the piston and cylinder look identical to mine. The first time I thought the bearing was fine. Does the piston and cylinder grooves appear to have square edges?. I have been a mechnic for over 30 years and it fooled me.
John
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Sorry to sound like a broken record but I looked at the pictures you posted and the piston and cylinder look identical to mine. The first time I thought the bearing was fine. Does the piston and cylinder grooves appear to have square edges?. I have been a mechnic for over 30 years and it fooled me.
John
John, after speaking to Odykid, Moskito and Ludedude, it seems as though you hit the nail on the head! A bottom-end rebuild is in my immediate future. It's one of the things I told myself I never wanted to get into, but I guess it's unavoidable at this juncture. Thank you for your input. I'll post my findings as I get there.
Thanks again!
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Sniper, I've got a case splitter tool, you want it? Plus i'll dig up the info I started if I can find it when I rebuilt mine
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Sniper, I've got a case splitter tool, you want it? Plus i'll dig up the info I started if I can find it when I rebuilt mine
Yes, yes and, uh, yes!!! Any tools and info you can send my way will be greatly appreciated!!!
I know I've said this before on more than one occasion, but, where the hell would I be were it not for all of you guys?
Thanks Lude!!!
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Cool, done deal...I just saw it yesterday and thought of you, wondering if you'd need it. I'll try to get it packed up tonight.
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Sniper, I also made the tool for pulling the crank into the bearing. If Lude does not send it with the case splitter just e-mail me your address and I will send it to you. This site has excellent information on how to do the job. The only tip that I have is to order the rod first. Rods are marked and that determine the bearing size and crank pin size. I ordered mine from Brad at Service Honda.
Good luck John
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Yeah O have the tool for that as well and for pulling the flywheel...we got you covered Vic.
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Sniper, I also made the tool for pulling the crank into the bearing. If Lude does not send it with the case splitter just e-mail me your address and I will send it to you. This site has excellent information on how to do the job. The only tip that I have is to order the rod first. Rods are marked and that determine the bearing size and crank pin size. I ordered mine from Brad at Service Honda.
Good luck John
John, again thank you for the offer. I've got LOTS of reading to catch up on if I'm going to pull this little miracle off!
Once again, I appreciate your help and I will contact you if I need the special bearing tool!
Yeah O have the tool for that as well and for pulling the flywheel...we got you covered Vic.
Lude, very cool! It seems as though everyone else has my bases covered for me! Thank God for having friends!!! I guess I'm going to have to finally pull the old PowerBloc too, so if you have any tools/pointers on that one, I'd greatly appreciate it! Once I'm done with the bottom end, I'll end up putting on the new PowerBloc you sold me. Then she'll finally be spit shiny and ready to roll!!! 8)
Thanks again bro!
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Ni?o I have the puller for the clutch so don't worry about that one also I have some free time to help if you let me know in advance when you going to do this, but you better have some BBQ and BEERS... haha
Odykid :wink:
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I will like to personally thanks every one on this board that help Sniper all this help got him out of the hole of the depression he was in after finding out that he needs to rebuilt his bottom end. :?
For him this was a terrible news, :cry: the news was so bad that I got him in his back yard one afternoon with a paper, pen, beer and a gun, :( no he was not going to kill him self he was shooting the ducks at the lake, and writing a bill of sale to sell the pilot?haha. :D
Sorry Vic this was all Marcos Idea?lol
:D
Odykid
:wink:
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Latin Singer you are really Bad! .................................I like it lol. :twisted:
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Not that bad just a little like me :D ....lol
odykid :wink:
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I will like to personally thanks every one on this board that help Sniper all this help got him out of the hole of the depression he was in after finding out that he needs to rebuilt his bottom end. :?
For him this was a terrible news, :cry: the news was so bad that I got him in his back yard one afternoon with a paper, pen, beer and a gun, :( no he was not going to kill him self he was shooting the ducks at the lake, and writing a bill of sale to sell the pilot?haha. :D
Sorry Vic this was all Marcos Idea?lol
:D
Odykid
:wink:
Odykid, that was HILARIOUS! LOL!!! Please, tell Marcos to GET BACK TO WORK, but ask him if he's "ogay" first!!! :lol:
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I told him already that he have too much time on his hands...lol
he still trying to figure it out if he is OK or Ogay.....lol
Cya later Ni?o
Odykid :wink:
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ludedude, it appears both Throttle and I are going to have to do bottom ends. We plan to team up one weekend and pull them both apart. Would you be willing to loan your tools out again??
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Uhhh..yeah, but i need to pull 2 bottom ends apart first, hopefullly in the next week or two.....when do you plan to do them?
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Probably early to mid January.
Sounds like your luck is not too good either. Who do you get to rebuild your cranks?
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I hope to have both bottom ends tore down over Christmas, so I shjould be able to ship the tools out early January.
One rebuild is done as the bearings are bad...it was still running, but you could move the crank by hand quite a bit...time to tear it down, before it runis other stuff. The other one was destroyed! Oil plug came out...not good :(
I had one crank rebuilt by PCP....no recommendation there. The next 2 were done by ATVR, exspensive...but done right and shipped well protected. No reason a good local shop couldn't do them...I just had a bunch of stuff that went to ATVR so I got them done with a bunch of other things.
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Crank rebuilding isn't as hard as one thinks... but you need the right tools and the will to take it on.
A pair of dial indicators
A pair of V-blocks
one big nasty heavy LEAD hammer - I think I used a 5 - 7 lb unit.
an elbow that doesn't hurt after half a dozen blows...
Use a penny to space the rod between the crank halves - neat trick that Don @ PCP showed me back when he was still at ATVR.
You need a 20 ton or better press to get the things apart and back together.
Push the crank apart
Replace the stuff you want to replace,
Push crank back together using Mr. Lincoln to space the stuff correctly - I want to say it was put between one crank half and the rod's lower end. See where he fits before you press the crank apart...
Try to get the crank bodies aligned as best as possible before pressing them together - a good metal right angle square or two (or three, or four) help
Press the crank together just up to capturing Mr. Lincoln.
Take it to the v-blocks and check the ends w/the dial indicators. Do BOTH ends at the same time - you want to be able to see what the crank halves are doing in relation to each other. Also check the ends of the crank at the end and also up where the bearings ride. You'll see twisting in some cases, but it will show up as a fairly straight crank on the ends.
Start manipulating the crank halves with Mr. Lead Hammer - you have to hit the crank like you hate it to get any results. I was quite surprised how hard...
Eventually you'll see where hitting it on one way does just the opposite of what you expected - "Gee, why is it .040 out now when it was .01?"
Hit it, check it, hit it, check it. It's really not THAT hard, just have to have the right tools, the will to give it a shot and an elbow that survives.
FWIW, I did both Stoneman's and the FS's crank at PCP one afternoon with Don "showing me the way". Stone's crank came out to less than .001 on both ends in about 5 minutes. The FS, on the other hand, took about 30 min to get down to .002. Never could get it better than that. Don told me later that sometimes they just don't play nice. Oh well!
If you decide to weld the pins, don't add material - just use the tig to melt the pin and crank together. Adding any weight (filler rod) will throw the crank out of balance.
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OK all.....time for your "end of the year" welding engineering lesson.
>> Moskito wrote:
>>"If you decide to weld the pins, don't add material - just use the tig to >> melt the pin and crank together"
Please note: a weld made without the use of filler wire is refered to as an "autogenous" weld.
There now.......don't you feel smarter?
..............ok, I admit it, I'm sitting here at work and I'm bored. I should be out riding my pilot or inventing some kind of cool off-road gadget. But nooooo, I have to sit here until 4:00 with the rest of the nerds.
Vrroom
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OK all.....time for your "end of the year" welding engineering lesson.
>> Moskito wrote:
>>"If you decide to weld the pins, don't add material - just use the tig to >> melt the pin and crank together"
Please note: a weld made without the use of filler wire is refered to as an "autogenous" weld.
There now.......don't you feel smarter?
ah'-toe-jen-us?
Wanna pronounce it corretly before I is smarter... :D
..............ok, I admit it, I'm sitting here at work and I'm bored. I should be out riding my pilot or inventing some kind of cool off-road gadget. But nooooo, I have to sit here until 4:00 with the rest of the nerds.
Vrroom
ROFLMAO!!!!
Not me... Been busy making neat shit for XR50s (http://www.k-fab50s.com - look at the hubs...).
I love this CNC machine now that I'm able to actually carry on a conversation with it. Still not talking on a college level with it yet - probably Freshman high school - but man it's cool!
Just got metal, time to go make more chips.
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Just noticed your flying your favorite dictators flag :lol: I hear he needs soldiers for hire. You interested?
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Moskito,
Glad to here you're busy. I love to play with CNC equipment (and z50/ct70 motors) I try to play with the machines here at work, but the General (GE) doesn't like it when I start making things for my own personal use.
Huh, immagine that!
On the z50 and ct70 stuff.....
A while back, when I worked at a NASA facility in LA (LA as in "Lousiana", not "Los Angeles" or "lower Alabama") I used to write Technical Tips for the International Mini Bike Association (IMBA).
Not that I have any pull or anything like that, but you may want to contact Guy Foster at <http://www.swiftsite.com/minibike> and see if he is interested in selling your minibike parts on his web site. Tell him I sent you (he may remember me?)
Vrroom
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Moskito, I'm revamping the store software I have for the 45thParallel Store. If you're interested in that, drop me a line, and I'll give you a tour ;) Exsisting one works decent...new one will be a lot more admin friendly.
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Ludedude I realized I never did respond to your post about being able to ship the tools out early January. That would be great. I hope you have good luck with yours. So you going to try the cranks yourself this time?
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I just got the bill for duty/taxes for Vic sending them back to me...this is nuts. Why I have to pay tax on something that's mine just cause it crosses the border is STUPID. I know there's probably a way to do it without paying taxes/duty...but they sure do not make it easy to do so.
The tools do not cost that much to make..err have made. I may try and duplicate them at work and send a set down to be kept on the south side of the border for whoever to use.
I have one crank already rebuilt...I'll wait and see what the other crank looks like when we pull it. I just now remember that I had trouble removing one of the crank bearings from the crank the last rebuild I did....any suggestions anyone???
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Let me guess. The clutch side bearing was a PIA to get off. I used a dremel and cutting wheel to cut the outer cage off. Then i cut most of the way through the inner cage, and used a cold chisel to break the inner cage off the crank. It may sound cavemannish, but it worked. After you have the bearing off make sure you polish the bearing surface with 600 or higher grit sandpaper/emory cloth.
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Whoa! I just ran across your post there, bud! After all of the shipping experience we've gathered back and forth between you and I, I've come to a conclusion:
It doesn't matter what you send or how you send it, the government will bill you (or not) at their own will!
PLEASE tell me what the damages are so that I can Paypal you!!! PLEASE!!!!!