Author Topic: 102c Calibrations...  (Read 8157 times)

Factory 45

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102c Calibrations...
« on: October 10, 2012, 06:12:04 AM »
I know there is a clutching separation Powerblock/Comet with most guys...but this thread is mainly to see what kind of Comet calibrations guys have used to suit different riding styles around the country.

I have had a tote full of clutches (all Comet...ranging from a 70's 102c for parts...BRAND NEW 102c #208306...to a VERY CUSTOM 108c that Cowboy sent me a while back) and a rev-delete CDI built by Bill Keefe. My area in NH brings my Pilot into some VERY technical climbs up rough rocky slopes into the mountains...so unfortunately all the Comet stuff has been shelfed for a while as it has not been needed. My stock clutch and belt is IMO the best setup for the riding I have done thus far.

Now...the trip to D-Town is a ride that has TONS of long FAST pulls on trails that are super highways. Yesterday I pulled out the clutch tote and started poking around into what I have and could possibly utilize for a higher revving setup for the trip. I have chosen the NEW 102c to use...for a few reasons. When you scale the clutches...the 102 is the lightest...the 108 needs a movable face (as the bushing is worn and not replaceable without a whole M/F) and WOW is that going to be a project. Cowboy has taken a 108c (fittment is for a V-Max 800 4-cylinder) and machined the OD of the fixed and movable face down to the OD of a stock clutch...so it will fit inside the frame...and under the belt shield. Plus...Cowboy had this 108 on a CR500 Pilot...so it will be tricky to re calibrate it to run correctly on a 400cc Pilot...as mine is.

So...to the 102c. My first attempt at a calibration setup may be my last. It has a set of B-1 arms (45g each with heavy tips...NOT thin mod tips) and a Black Comet spring. I am running the Polaris belt to try it out. The STOCK mitsuboshi belt is still close to a C-Note and is typically special order from your Honda dealer...as the Polaris belt fits ALOT of current 4x4 models and the RZR models...so is typically IN STOCK at most Polaris dealers. (significantly cheaper than the Honda belt...even from locations outside of my distributors and discounts)

So in regards to the belt and clutch angles...BEFORE i popped the stock Honda primary from the crank...I measured the clutches the way Ski Doo tells you to measure (X-Y-Z method with a straight aluminum bar) and checked the belt for wear from over a YEAR of use and abuse :) Happy to say that stock belt is damn tough...service limit is 1.100 in and it is 1.2+/- when it is new (mine measured 1.170 after use which was pretty impressive to me) The Polaris belt new in the package measures 1.16+/- and has ALOT less overall height for side bite on the faces. After popping the stock clutch and installing the 102...the secondary DID NOT need any shims to match the OEM angles (tolerances are much wider in snowmobile specs for these measurements) the difference between stock/comet were within .003 in...X and Y.

Now to the setup and results...135g of cam arm weight, Black spring, PWK running 182 main and 45 pilot jet.(elevation is 0-600 here in Southern NH) Engagement was 3800-3900 (NOT bouncing off reverse rev limiter) and forward pull is GNARLY. She engages and pulls right up into the high 6000 range and does all the shifting to full engagement up around 7500. When you back off and hit it again...it wants to peel rubber and scream right back into the 7's. It does not bog or lag ANYWHERE through the shifting range...this is why I say this may be a one and done setting. It is IMO too agressive for the rocky granite state trail riding I have done...but feels PERFECT for D-Town.

Any Input? Opinions? Other things guys have tried? Results?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:25:32 AM by Factory 45 »

LiveWire

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 07:17:50 AM »
It does sound like a good setup for high speed riding. I like the Heel Clicker setup because I can have both. My revs climb past the stock rev limiter at high speed which gave me the highest top speed. Engagement is low and I can putter around at low RPMs, yet not bog when I nail it.

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 08:50:42 AM »
My intention is to try this setup in a more real world riding experience before we load up for the trip. Was and am very tempted to get the clicker setup from you eventually to try more settings...but this one is pretty bad ass for now. (I really am reluctant to even change my FIRST setup because I liked it so much after the first test) I do have some MOD tip arms that are much heavier...and 4 other springs to try out (2 of which I just ordered from CPC/Comet/Mfg. Supply) They are:

Pink- 45/130 Comet (on order)
Black- 50/198 Comet (currently in the clutch)
White- 82/160 Comet (on order)
Red/White- 100/220 Polaris P-85
Blue- 118/187 Comet

And Weights/Arms:
B-1 Comet (45g weighted tip)
A-2 Comet (47g MOD tip)
10/AL Polaris (lightened to 48.5g MOD tip)
F Polaris or John Deere...not sure?!?! (53g weighted tip) which by my calculations may be better for running something like a PARADE :) with a grunty CR500 Pilot lol. But if the profile is similar to the B-1...may play with the weight of them to dial in things I may not like about the B-1/Black calibration.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 12:00:03 PM by Factory 45 »

LiveWire

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 11:19:53 AM »
The inhibition to change because it throws the whole curve you currently have out the window is one reason why I like the Heel Clickers. You can change just one aspect of the shift curve with minimal effect on the others. The Heavy Hitters have that same advantage. The other advantage the Heel Clickers have is the shoulder on the Heel Clickers increases shift force which is balanced with a longer high pre-load spring. More effective shift weight balanced the same with more spring force results in the clutch maintaining a tighter RPM range around the tuned RPM. This rule of thumb is mathematically backed in Olav Aaen's clutch tuning handbook. So the Heel Clickers with more effective shift force and more spring load at low speeds will better maintain a tuned RPM. With conventional arms, if you tune for a low engagement, in a situation where you have more traction, the engine may bog as the RPMs are pulled down.

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 11:55:54 AM »
Im no Olav...but can agree totally about your Heel Clicker Kit. Love the ability to fine tune personally too. Its close...but may need some real world tweaking. Its just currently Im doing a 450R frame to finish...so not trying to spend massive coin on 2 projects before the winter...and the Pilot sits for 3 mos lol.

Its really hard to tune a setup that has ZERO ability to change the driven settings too. Especially if the driven is old and grungy. (not mine...but just for comparison)

Not to drag out the trade secrets...but what do the clickers weigh naked?

Adnoh

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 12:52:33 PM »
Some good read, thanks.

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 04:53:52 AM »
I like the idea of having a high rev setup for getting the engine more into the powerband (REALLY wish you could hook a CVT DIRECTLY to an engine dyno) but downhills and wheel spin could get me into trouble revving this high. This is why Im gonna drive it first. It is also worth noting that my plan is to use the "dirt shield" for the 102c which will add over a pound to the assembly...

Race Pilot guys rev the crap out of their engines...but how high is too high for the mechanical limits of a Pilot? I have not played with tightening the squish and use a stock head gasket (Speedchaser COOL head w/buyer beware race gas only dome in use)...but the main bearings are a known issue as well on the FL400. (my right side is a NISSAN 6306/32 and has proven to be a GREAT replacement for me thus far) My connecting rod is a CR500 Pro-X that was NOT narrowed for the piston...so it has the standard CR5 top bearing and rod small end dimensions. (modified the piston instead)

My intention was to improve the durability of the engine so as to make some race/trail improvements in power. Now that I have some time on the engine...it still blows the same numbers as the original compression test...I'm ready to play around with the RPM ranges by clutching...but dont wanna push it too far.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:36:36 AM by Factory 45 »

Adnoh

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 02:45:47 PM »
Would it be ok for me to chime in a little in the interest of learing. Me that  is since I have never used these type of clutches. and I do have a little working knowledge in higher revs and power output as it peaks my interest.

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 06:54:35 AM »
Absolutely...would like to hear any suggestions :)

hoodlum

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 11:31:13 AM »


Race Pilot guys rev the crap out of their engines...but how high is too high for the mechanical limits of a Pilot?

I think you should be able to get 12000 out of it!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Dont try this....I am only kidding.....

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 03:05:31 PM »
Right...they have NO VALVES...soooooo why not :)

I just NEED to stay with you and Rocketman this trip...looking for that "edge" LMFAO.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 03:07:05 PM by Factory 45 »

hoodlum

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 08:19:20 PM »
The least expensive way to accomplish this would be to just slow us down... ;D

Factory 45

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 04:43:45 AM »
:) The real goal Hood is fun...and getting Luke in the mix with his Ody for the whole trip this time. I have found getting closer to the fast guys just makes you better/faster...so I wanna be right there with you guys...when you pull away from the pack this time.

Adnoh...the 102c has a rating of <8500 RPM. I know on a dyno I would be able to see the curve drop after power peaks...but with no sheet on my engine its "seat of pants" testing really. I just dont wanna waste an engine pushing it beyond its mechanical limits...especially if that peak curve is being passed after a certain RPM.

You are a Powerblock user? How are they and what kind of RPMs does your buggy make out of curiousity? Have you any knowledge of how high is too high for RPMs?

Adnoh

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 04:28:16 PM »
12,000 rpm that a good one. you could change the bore ,stroke and rod ratio and get those numbers though. Just might be a little slower for the weight of the machine. Would reve like a _ _ bad mother. Factory you could threaten them with a budy and some spike strips that may at least get them to look twice and slow them up a touch but not for long. Last time I rod with them it help me as one goughed out his tire. It was so dusty they could not see my friend lurking in the trees. They did get even when I gernaded mine I guess pay backs a bit _ _.

As far a power block goes I can run mid8's all day long. It takes a little engine work but can be done. A little over rev never hurt either. I just dialed in a new set up and spin it in the mid eights there more to it but touch on it later. I found the best setting is what you engine math tells one they can run and then push it a touch further.

Here a pic of the vapor on a 600' pull with a rev delete I just did on a cdi to test it. It was using a power block with 12 disc. Ill try to get some video to share with an explaination of what I did.  As you can see from the engine temp the jetting was a touch rich. The rpm and mph goes up when the temp get close to 190. Upon a sustained run  longer in footage it would have easly hit mid 60's like a flat out dune crossing etc.

This is why the post interest me as it may provide a better setting than a power block can delivier .

Adnoh

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Re: 102c Calibrations...
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 04:57:50 PM »
I forgot to add I thing those guys are running the 102 so pick there brain. I bet they will help you get where you need to be.