Author Topic: Update, FINALLY  (Read 12381 times)

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« on: August 07, 2006, 12:16:16 AM »
Ok, so its obviously been forever since I updated. The good old FL583 project got pushed to the back of the garage while I got the bright idea to buy a house and flip it, in the worst real estate market in the country! Luckily, I was finally able to sell the house, and make a few bucks, so I'm back to attempting my Rotax in an FL350.

I've seen lude's build, and this won't be NEARLY as pretty. His is a marvel of enginering. This is more, Harbor Frieght lol. Nothing like cutting 1/4 in steel plate with an 18 dollar harbor frieght angle grinder. So hopefully these updates will show that you can build a fast buggy, on a budget. So far, I've still got less than 1500 into the build.

Ok, so here's what I've done so far. I bought just about every part ever suggested to me, realized most of it wasn't going to work, and ended up going the easy route. I have a 583 out of 91 Formula Plus. Basiclly its a 580 motor. I origionally bought a super BN single 44mm carb. It would have worked, but it didn't come with any of the throttle linkages or cables to match it to the oil injection. I tried to piece it together, but I didn't know what model seadoo used this carb. Luckily, my brother happen to grenade his 93 Skidoo XP, with a 580 in it. Soooooooo I stole his intake and carbs and air box lol. So now I can tune each cylinder, and I've got carbs that I know work. Plus I have all the linkages etc.

So on to the motor mount. I took a piece of 3/4 tube, welded a nut in either end, and put it between the brackets where the stock engine would normally mount. This gives me a place to attach the rear of my motor plate. Then I took a 12x12 piece of 1/4 steel plate, and figured out where I need to put my motor. When I mocked it up on my spare frame, it looked like I needed to cut the frame on both sides, but now, I have it so I only have to cut the frame on the pull start side. I'll end up filling that area back in with more 1/4 once things are settled in.

I ordered a set of motor mounts (basiclly just washers with rubber between them) for an older skidoo, where the motor bolted in from below. Their about a 1/2 inch thick. I'll use those between the bottom of the motor and the engine plate. I'm also using the snowmobile motor mounts on the front of the motor, also issolated by rubber bushings. And finally, I'll end up fabing brackets to conect the rear of the rotax to the trans, just like the stock set up.

Hopefully tomorrow I can drill out the plate and mount the motor. Then start running my wiring harness.

nuke em

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 06:09:38 AM »
Thanks for the update/info Greasemnky. I will be starting my attempt soon and I am on a tight budget too. Keep posting and taking pictures, I need all the info and tips I can get. My biggest concern is clutch alingments, belt size and exhaust to seat clearances. How did you figure those? My engine is an EFI like Ludes so I can tilt the engine some to get more downward angle on the ehaust and more seat room.

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 07:10:07 AM »
Actually, by running seadoo carbs I can rotate my motor just as much as an EFI. The motor uses a fuel pump very similar to the stock FL350 motor. Only real diffrence is the pumps are mounted directly to the carbs. I'll take a few pictures later of the three diffrent carb setup's I was playing with. The reason I went with the rotax, is its in several diffrent machines, so theres a lot of stock parts I can interchange to make this work. Plus its supposedly the only sled engine certified by the FAA for reliability. I figure if they put them in air planes, I'm safe at the dunes.

As far as belts, I cut a stock ody belt, and then cut the skidoo belt that was on my sled, and measured their length, they are the same! So I've got a little theroy I'm working on. The skidoo belt is slightly wider than the ody belt. Right now I have a very small spacer in the driven clutch to allow the belt to seat correctly. With this set up, my engagement should be the same as when it was in the sled (I think around 3K). Now because the drive clutch is the sled clutch, the sled clutch will want to pull the belt farther than the driven will allow. I've got a tach, so I'll just have to do trial and error to see what rpm to keep it under.

Now, my theroy is, if I want to up the rpm it engages in, I should be able to pull the spacer in the driven, and put the stock ody belt back in. Its slightly more narrow, so the sled clutch will have to come together farther to engage it.

As far as aligning the clutches, I had three laser levels rigged up to make sure I was sqauare etc. And I got the deflection from the skidoo manual.

I don't have access to an aluminum welder, so I'm going to use a spun tank to start, but I have three beat up stock tanks, and I think I'm going to experiment making one to fit around the pull start.

nuke em

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 11:02:32 AM »
Here is a few pictures that I just took of what my engine will be going into(when I get the time). These motor mounts are way different than yours. Looks like you removed your stock front mounts. Cage is quite abit lower, front has more travel than stock, I still have not desided on rear suspension yet. I may use stock for now then go back and design a long travel rear. I have not desided on fuel tank type or location either. Looks like alot of fun work ahead! I will be picking brains for info then too.

 There is some info on the airbox lid about elevation changes. The last 2 are clutching, no prob, but the first is a gear change. Is that something I need to worry about or is that part of the track system?

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 12:01:23 PM »
See, I plan to tackle the front suspension once the motors in. I have a rolling 250R chasis sitting next to the garage, that I picked up for the a-arm conversion. And I've got an extra upper cage, so I'll probably play with that one and see how low I can get it. I'm going with an aftermarket seat, so I want toget all that settled before I do the front or the cage. Plus I want to make sure this even works before spending time fabing the front.

Yeah, I had a lovely little plan to save the front mounts so it would be a bolt in application. Then I started looking at all the work and thought, why would I ever put the stock motor back in? So I just took them off. The way I did the plate, it actually adds to the strength of that cross bar. So instead of the weight of the engine being on two points, its spread across the whole bar, plus I have little supports welded in under the plate to the bars that run underneath. Its been in pieces for so long, I want to get the engine in, make sure that all works, then when the snow flies, I'm pulling it all apart, doing the front suspension, and painting the whole thing candy red. At least thats the plan...................

ludedude

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2006, 07:41:02 AM »
Quote from: "Nuke Em"
There is some info on the airbox lid about elevation changes. The last 2 are clutching, no prob, but the first is a gear change. Is that something I need to worry about or is that part of the track system?


That's in the gearbox on the sled. The driven clutch goes on a shaft that crosses to the other side of the sled and into a gearbox which drives the track....that's what they're referring to ;) Nothing for you to worry about  :P

My engine mounting is very similiar to yours greasemnky! :) I ran a tube between the rear plates on the tranny too. I used front isolation rubber mounts from the pilot's stock front mounts inside this tube, and bolted the front of the plate (actually arms extended of the front of the plate) into stock pilot front rubber isolation mounts ;)

Nuke Em, if it's not in my thread, I have it somewhere, a list of all Arctic Cat sleds and they're belt numbers and diimensions (center to center distances of the clutches). The belt I picked is lnger than the pilot belt, but shorter than the ZR600 belt...I believe it's of a Panther??

greasemnky, you got room for your carbs with the engine laying that level? I had to tilt mine a lot to get the throttle bodies to clear the tranny. ANd in looking at that last night....I now think I can add elcetric start after all!! :) Under the engine, bolted to the mounting plate....just need to find a clutch ring gear and starter sometime.

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 03:33:57 PM »
Actually I have more than enough room. If you look close, my intake is actually already on the rear of motor, the carbs actually mount on TOP not behind. By using the rotax motor line, I have an advantage of it being used in several diffrent applications. The 580 family of blocks was used in light air craft, sleds, jet skis, and the first jet boats. So I have several carb choices etc. I even bought a couple exhaust manifolds from a small airplane, that might save me from making something. MIGHT, being the key word.

I also have a seadoo exhaust manifold, that comes 90 degrees right off the motor. Only downside is it sends the exhaust strait up off the motor, I'd rather go down so I can keep the pipe length the same.

The motor WILL be rotated forward a little, but not too much. Its sitting flat on the plate right now because its not bolted in. When I attach the front mounts, and put the bushings underneath, I set it up to sit forward.

nuke em

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2006, 06:51:02 PM »
Quote from: "greasemnky"

I also have a seadoo exhaust manifold, that comes 90 degrees right off the motor. Only downside is it sends the exhaust strait up off the motor, I'd rather go down so I can keep the pipe length the same.


From what I gather from the "Big Brain Guys" Lude,Skeeter, Dennis, ect, The exhaust is a very touchy item on these twin engines. Changing even 1 inch of length can totally disrupt the pulse wave and really hinder performance. If you have the time to play with it(changing lengths) you may hit it right and get her to really scream.

Also, What kind of room is there between the carbs and the tranny. I know it depends on the angle of the engine, but yours appears to be near level. The reason is the EFI I have uses a large airbox with all the electronics in it so I would prefer to use it as is for now. I probably will have to cut, move, or remove the center support brace. We will see later I guess. I can do a fit test yet, Fed still has my spare tranny for this project in his 350. I guess I am going to have to send "Guido" over to snap some fingers! LMAO!!!  :shock:  In the Pilots, like Ludes, distance is probably different do to the trannies being different shaped. Just guessing again though. Great info, keep it going. :wink:

Gary

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2006, 10:12:16 PM »
I'll try to post some pics later this week with the seadoo carbs on. Basiclly, the carbs sit up almost level with the head, and the air box is mount directly onto that.

Basiclly, I'm running a high output Jetski Motor. And their all right, the length is a big issue. So is the size of the pipe. Now here's where having a rotax is IMHO an advantage, the seadoo manifold is exactly the same length as the skidoo manifold. Only diffrence is it points strait down (or up if you choose) instead of strait out. Here's a picture of the seadoo manifold. It points the exhaust strait down. I kicked around the idea of using a full seadoo exhaust, but that posses some other issues, plus their cast! Instead of stamped. So basiclly, I'm going to have a seadoo manifold into a stock skidoo pipe. Keeping all the sections the same length, I hope.

ludedude

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 06:20:36 AM »
Gary, you do not need to run that EFI airbox. Pull the ECU off of it, and the air temp sensor from the airbox. Just insert the air temp sensor into your new airbox and mount the ECU where you can. ;)

Man! A 90? RIGHT off the engine! I would have thought that would hinder flow. Right off the manifold would be too tight for my setup...but....the Arctic Cat manifold is already angled up....flip it and it's angled down ;) cut a little triangle out of the bottom half of each pipe and add it to the top (keeping overall length the same) and angle them down steeper.....use the stock pipe junction from the stock pipe...maybe even the stock pipe.....I have an extra 2 into 1 coming from Ebay ;) Be nice if I could get a second pipe...I'd like to keep the stock pipe as is for the sled if I can......

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2006, 01:23:13 PM »
I was thinking it was a bit steep also, but my theroy is, they run them this way from the factory, so it must be ok. Plus mines rated at 110hp, so I figure even if I loose a few here or there, I should be at 75-80hp

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2006, 06:25:05 PM »
Ok, so I was playing with putting a PWC style electric start on, yeah, that was a failure, ahhh well. But I noticed something. There's a TON of holes etc in the pull start end of my case. Looks like vent holes or something. Now in a sealed sled bay, no biggie. Hanging 2 inches outside my frame, a little worrysome.

Has anyone else played with these rotax motors? If I weld them closed, am I just asking for a nightmare? And if sand gets in there, am I looking at a kaboom?

FL670R

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2006, 11:52:53 PM »
Quote from: "greasemnky"
Ok, so I was playing with putting a PWC style electric start on, yeah, that was a failure, ahhh well. But I noticed something. There's a TON of holes etc in the pull start end of my case. Looks like vent holes or something. Now in a sealed sled bay, no biggie. Hanging 2 inches outside my frame, a little worrysome.

Has anyone else played with these rotax motors? If I weld them closed, am I just asking for a nightmare? And if sand gets in there, am I looking at a kaboom?


Kaboom - Naw that area is only the electical side of the engine at the very worst all that would happen is that you may loose spark...

I noticed the same opening on my 670 rotax
I had tought about covering them on mine but thus far I have not
Mine has openings (I believe for timing adjustments) on top and it also has some on the bottom.

I don't ride in much water, mud, or snow and I figured any sand that goes in the top will eventually fall out the bottom...

If I were to close mine I'd most likley use silcone or JB weld something over them - Welding to that area may cause unwanted damage...

PS
I am also running watercraft intake and Carb on my 670 and I LOVE IT...
Its small, tuckes in tight to the engine, and changing jets is so damn easy...

But I run the stock Exhaust manifold (your upper pict) that I have modified to angle down more via cut and weld...

I have a real hard time believing that lower manifold would flow enough without restricting your exhaust...
I'm also suprise it doesn't cook the paint at the angles...

I guess you will let us know once its running    :o   8)

Later
Dennis

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2006, 08:01:56 AM »
Quote from: "Nuke Em"
From what I gather from the "Big Brain Guys" Lude,Skeeter, Dennis, ect,
ROFLMAO!!! - I have this cartoon mental image of the three of us sitting around a table, trying to hold our brain-overladen heads up.  8)

I'm with Dennis on this one - leave the holes open.  My old Arctic Cat engines (run in the Dez) had openings in the case casting where the rotor and stator plate was.  Never had any issues with dirt being a problem.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

greasemnky

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Update, FINALLY
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2006, 09:21:51 AM »
Sounds good! After I said "weld" I was outside playing with a thin piece of rubber and a couple of really big band clamps, figured worse come to worse, I could make a removable "cover". But I think I'm going to go with your advice and leave it open for now.

As for the jetski manifold, I am saving the factory sled manifold just in case. Its not a  90 degree inside the manifold though. Its got a nice rounded path, much smoother than anything I could weld up. I got bored last night and started polishing the inside of it. Figure its worth a shot, if it doesn't work, I fab up a manifold. If it works, then I just saved everyone who runs a rotax a bit of time :)

Dennis, do all the rotax sleds use the same electric starters? I can get a starter ring and the starter from a 440 for real cheap.