Author Topic: Decision made  (Read 2601 times)

dan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« on: May 02, 2006, 10:02:32 AM »
Iv'e come to the decision of replaceing my stock engine with a rotax when i rebuild my pilot.
But before i order a new engine i need a bit of advice, i have been on the rotax site

http://www.rotax.com/en/Engine/2004/Snowmobile/Engine.Models.htm

and was considering one of the 593 types, any suggestion which one would suit best?
 
Here in the UK rotax engines are mainly used in hovercrafts and ultralights, so the company im talking to about supplying me the engine dont know anything about there use in snowmobiles, what i need to know is are there different size output shafts on rotax engines if so what type of shaft do i need for a clutch? and what clutch do i use?

Thanks Dan.

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2006, 12:26:32 PM »
Ask them what type of output shaft they have.

You can get a sled clutch off Ebay if you find out the output shaft size is the same.

 :wink:

Moskito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.yellowdogracing.com
Decision made
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2006, 01:19:59 PM »
I think the general sled output shaft taper is 10:1


Don't the rotax engines vibrate relentlessly?  - or is that the 583?
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

FL670R

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2006, 01:47:44 PM »
Quote from: "Moskito"
I think the general sled output shaft taper is 10:1

Don't the rotax engines vibrate relentlessly?  - or is that the 583?

Only when completely hard mounted as Alan of Drakart used to do...
After Tom (litespeed) added a better engine mount it took care of that.

I don't seem to have any vibration issues with the 670.

Dan what happen to the stock motor ?

Non stock motors in pilots are a LOT OF WORK - you will most likely be messing with it quite a bit.

You'll have to fab Engline mounts, re-route the intake, modify the exahust, reloacate the gas tank - yadda yadda yadda...

If you love to tinker more than ride go for it...
(at least until all the bugs are worked out)

I have a backup ride for my 670 because I hate to sit with a broken machine while others are playing....

Nothing beats stock for reliability...

dan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2006, 02:56:03 PM »
I still have the stock engine but i want more power (dont we all), my pilot is about 130 mile from me and i have started the process of stripping it down, i have a full set off new plastics, new rear caliper and parking brake, new decals, full front brake rebuild kit, and new mirrors,  i also have a full bushing kit on its way, still got to get shocks (need to speak to Lude) so if i wanted to use it i couldnt.

Fabricating all the parts isnt a problem, i have a freind who works at Fords engineering headquarters at a place called Dunton just down the road from me and he said he will help (gonna wish he didn't), all i have to do is make sure i choose the right engine before i can do any more, do i go carb or efi, what would be the best power to go for (thinking round the 100hp mark). :?:

FL670R

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 180
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2006, 03:14:41 PM »
100 HP is a lot of ponies...

Is your machine Long Travel ?

If not you will be severilly overpowering the suspension...
(Unless your primiary use will be on a flat track)

You may need to beef up the clutch pack in the tranny also to support  the additional HP and Torque - others have had issues with that

If you ever decide to sell the pilot it will bring much more $ in stock condition...

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything - just want you to have an idea of what your in for...

Been there done that (a couple times)

PS
Have you considered EFI - From Mountains to valleys and No jetting changes

Dennis

dan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2006, 03:35:38 PM »
My main riding is dirt tracks so not much jumping.

I aint doing it so it will be worth money, im doing it for the buzz.

EFI is an option like you said no jetting,but i havn't a clue about sled engines, thats why i need help from you guys.

dan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2006, 03:52:00 PM »
how about this?

Ozpilot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2006, 10:37:12 PM »
The 593 is a reed valve engine and is the engine in the later sleds (from about 2000).  The 583 is rotary valve and was in the earlier sleds.  If you're dealing with ultralight guys you will hear about a 582.  It seems this is almost identical to the 583 but is used in aircraft.  I have noticed Livewire has said things different to my understanding, but my understanding is that the ultralight engines are designed to rev a little lower (aircraft like their engines to be understressed and so less likely to poofkaboom) and, in my opinion, a 583 would be a better selection.

The 593 seems to suffer from vibration issues if not mounted "properly".  From what I've seen or heard or read, all conversions which use the OEM engine cradle and mounts avoid the vibration problem.  This is not a guarantee, just an observation.  I wouldn't do a conversion using that engine unless I used the OEM mounts (and it's a pretty neat aluminum set up (nice and light) so it's good to use anyhow).

The 593 also has a different drive taper.  The 583 has a fairly common taper (1:30? - whatever arctic cats, pilots etc have) but the 593 has a different one.  That's no problem if you use sled clutches (like Lude is) as you could use a TRA (which is the OEM clutch) or a comet 108EXP or something like that.  If you want to use a pilot style clutch then a powerbloc should (I think) fit a 583 but wil not fit a 593.

All that being said, I'd try to use an injected engine.  Maybe even a 4 stroke.  I'm a 2 stroke fan and I have two draks with 593s and one with a 693 (the 700cc version) ... but ... you've gotta move with the times!  I see injection as a must if you're building something.  In a few more years, carbs (and maybe 2 strokes!) will be as outdated as 2 strokes without power valves are now (hope that doesn't offend anyone!!).

I'll also add that I have a stock pilot and the reasons it remains a favorite include the facts that it always starts easily, it never gives a problem and you don't even have to think about maintenance time.  My toys are 100 miles from me too so I know it's great not to have to make a trip to work on a toy then another trip to ride it.

dan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 1
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2006, 11:36:03 AM »
Received some imformation and specs on a couple of rotax 4-stroke engines today,

Dan,
Here is the requested information. Let me explain the "problem" paragraph below -
Rotax do not build complete machines of any type, they supply engine units to
manufacturers that do, and those companies are responsible for all matters relating
to installation, including the supply of any special equipment required. This means
that you will have to provision all items not supplied with the engine yourself, including
the DESS post and key, etc. Rotax cannot supply these parts and neither can we,
and furthermore only limited technical information is available.
On this strict understanding an engine will be available in approximately 4 weeks from
date of order. Prices are (for Type 1004) ?2750.00 and ?2700 for Type 1304, both plus
VAT and ex-works Southampton.
Let me know how you would like to proceed, or if you need further information.
Best wishes,
Nick Hopkins

Enclosed the technical data ?

<<SKI1004_E_090104.pdf>> <<SKI1304_E_190805.pdf>>

Engine includes:

Throttle body, ECU, engine wiring harness, alternator, exhaust manifolds;

Not included:

Exhaust pipes & muffler, vehicles wiring harness (which includes power supply for ECU & charging system), intake silencer, fuel system, etc.

Problem:

DESS post & key needed to run the engine, power supply harness for the ECU, failure diagnostic for EMS system.

No or very limited support from Rotax possible (Seems not customer friendly, but my daily business do not include such special projects).

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
Decision made
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2006, 12:09:40 PM »
the 1304 is listed as a Ski-doo...so you should be able to grab what you need froma smashed sled???

dhjunkie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
clutch pto tapers
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2006, 10:35:29 AM »
Rotax switched tapers on their clutches, I forget the year.  but the 85 engine I have is a 1:10 taper short shaft  and I have seen the newer ones with a 1:7.5  taper short and deep taper.  
 Something to think about.

But dont fret,  whatever you get you can get the appropriate clutch for it off ebay or any sled site.

Now one thing about ultralite engines, while they are made by the same manufacturer as sled engines the crank is different on an aircraft motor.  especially at the pto side.  The Pto on an aircraft is either splined or has a flat mounting plate to attach to the propeller drive case.  other than that the basic engine parts are the same.  ALL aircraft engines are detuned for longevity: smaller aircraft certified carb, space saving constricting pipe and so on.