Author Topic: 600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion  (Read 58760 times)

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« on: January 18, 2006, 08:10:39 AM »
This will be the first entry into my blog for the 600 EFI LT project. Just some pictures to start.

Moskito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.yellowdogracing.com
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2006, 07:41:44 PM »
Wish I'd known you were looking for a 600 twin EFI - I have an Arctic Cat sitting on a shelf.  It has EVERYTHING needed to make it run including a starter.  When I stripped the sled, I took every wire, hose and anything else that was attached to the engine.  I also have a chip and the stock air box for it too....

Anyone interested???
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 03:16:21 AM »
yup...got another one here to do if this works out well :)

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
The 600 transplant
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 09:04:43 AM »
Well I pulled the engine from the sled, got pissed off that there's no snow here...and curious to see how it would fit in the pilot.Turns out it was a good idea, at least one of the engine mounts in the sled frame needs repairing.

The stock tank's not going to fit, the engine's too wide. It wil be close if I move the engine over and move the driven clutch over to match it. This wouyld mean a longer driven final shaft, and the need for support on the end. What I'm thinking is making up a new, longer final shaft for the driven, that will accept the Arctic Cat driven clutch. Longer so that I can better center the engine in the frame. Instead of a bolt threading into the center of the sahft to hold the clutch on ,I was thinking oof making up a shaft with a threaded end (same as the bolt) with flats on it for a wrench to tighten the shaft/clutch down. The end of this shaft will house a pillowblock bearing mounted on a brace, so as to support the extended shaft and increase in power transfer the shaft will see.

I laid a plate in the engine bay, and sat the engine on this to get an idea of how it will sit. I will have to tilt the engine a bit more than it was in the sled  to have the throttle bodies/air intake path clear the transmission. I plan to try and make mounts into the stock front pilot engine mount locations, attach to the plate, and attach to similiar brakets as the pilot uses on the transmission. The AC engine has the common 4 bolt mounting threaded holes on the bottom of the engine cases, even though they are not used in mounting this engine into the ZR frame. I hope to use these to bolt the AC engine to the mounting plate.

The pipe(s) and the tank should be fun. I have to find out what the criteria is for pipes for the EFI setup, are they more stringent on their design...etc. And whether I'm better off with dual pipes or a 2-into-1. If it's 2-into-1 I'll route them the pilot way and make a tank similiar to the pilot, thought it will need to be narrower at it's base to clear the pull start assembly. If I go duals,  I think I'll aim for a fuel tank above the engine, below my re-located rad. But it will have to be an easy out design to gain access to the engine.

Thoughts, suggestions?

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2006, 07:14:40 PM »
Gonna contact boondockers next week about this unit
ECU

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2006, 06:08:17 AM »
Got the OK to get setup as a dealer for the Boondocker unit :) Have to send in the paperwork today and go through the formalities.

Hope to make this into an install that I can repeat, and that others can do as well. The boondocker unit is a ECU piggyback unit that allows the addition and subtraction of fuel to the injectors while still maintaing the factory fuel curve and ability to compensate for air pressure and temperature, and engine temperature.

I'll need this because the air/fuel ratio will be bound to change with the different exhaust that will be incorporated to fit the pilot. Push button jetting...ahhh, I like it already  :D .

Moskito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.yellowdogracing.com
Re: The 600 transplant
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2006, 06:34:38 PM »
Quote from: "ludedude"
The end of this shaft will house a pillowblock bearing mounted on a brace, so as to support the extended shaft and increase in power transfer the shaft will see.

Thoughts, suggestions?


Here's a thought on the support shaft for the tranny. - beware, I'm gonna babble.

The Dez, with it's old engine setup, had the tranny mounted under the Arctic Cat engine - the tranny input shaft was supported with a thick walled short, stout tube that came off the chassis.  There was very little clearance at full upshift between the belt and the support shaft (and this bit me in Mexico when we modified the tube once ...)

Anyhow, with this idea in mind for the RX1 transplant (http://www.yellowdogracing.com/dezrx1install.htm) I kept the support for the input shaft between the clutches for easy and speedy belt changes.  (Jay supports  his from the back of the chassis - you pull a quick pin to rotate the support out of the way - one extra step I was able to remove from the changing process)

What made this setup work for me - and maybe for you with the 600??? - is that the rear engine mounts on the RX1 are supported by one LONG ass bolt that goes though both engine mounting lugs.  The long ass bolt has a rounded head with a square underneath the head - no need for a wrench on this end - just for the nut on the other end.  Sweet, easy setup.

Now, the next issue with this long ass bolt is that it's too long - in the RX1 sled, it goes through a couple bosses that are about 2" wide each.

Jay cuts this bolt to length, threads the cut end, sticks a nut on the threads and then welds the nut to the end of the shaft.  I recently read an article on bolts and decided there was no way I was gonna modify this bolt.  Instead, I was gonna use it for support.

What I did was turn down a piece of steel so that a piece of 1.125 x .095 walled tubing would slide over the tube.  Next I welded the thick wall tube to the outer side of the engine mount.

The excess bolt would be in this tube.  The tube, along with the bolt (which is under tension when torqued down) would act like a large boss for the input shaft support.

The support slides right over this boss and the bearing in the support slided over the end of the input shaft on the tranny.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

Moskito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.yellowdogracing.com
Re: The 600 transplant
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 06:43:56 PM »
Quote from: "ludedude"
The pipe(s) and the tank should be fun. I have to find out what the criteria is for pipes for the EFI setup, are they more stringent on their design...etc. And whether I'm better off with dual pipes or a 2-into-1. If it's 2-into-1 I'll route them the pilot way and make a tank similiar to the pilot, thought it will need to be narrower at it's base to clear the pull start assembly. If I go duals,  I think I'll aim for a fuel tank above the engine, below my re-located rad. But it will have to be an easy out design to gain access to the engine.

Thoughts, suggestions?


The AC 600 EFI engine I have uses a single pipe.  I was gonna modify it to fit in the single seater that I was gonna make...  I figure that the stocker works, the HP is MORE than enough for a small single seater.  Less may be more in this instance???

If you can get away with the single pipe, then why not use it?  Save some time, space, headaches...

That being said, the Yamaha twin powered Pilots that ATV Racing did a few years back ran dual pipes - they came up over the clutches then turned and went out  - like a stock pipe on a Pilot, just two of them.

The trick things were the fuel tanks that they made for those three Pilots.  They ran behind the seat, with wings (think of one of those recliner pillows you put on your bed to watch TV) that went around the sides of the seats.  The tanks were sort of  triangular shaped (from the side view) so they fit under the exhaust pipes, above the frame, behind/around the seat and up against the front of the engine.  I believe they were 11 gallons!  - then again, ATVR stretched the Pilots 6" right at the roll cage, so there was more room for a tank.

Keep it low and forward if at all possible.
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 07:40:17 PM »
I just can't let myslef go with a 2 into 1....here's why LOL

I'm an efficiency freak...sort of...I'll work for way too long to make something easier/more efficient/faster for the next time....spend way too much time = the freak part

How the heck does a 2 stroke, twin cylinder, with opposing piston orientations even work, in regards to the expansion chamber...don't the motion of the 2 pistons in opposing directions defeat the stuffing effect of the chamber? And that's why slapping duals onto a stock 2-into-1 setup makes such a difference?



I like the tranny shaft support...I like I like! I was going to use copies of the tranny-engine brackets as part of my engine cradle mount. Use the 3 holes from the tranny side, then down to a engine cradle, then to the front stock engine mounts. Wonder if the middle bolt on the tranny plate will clear the clutch??? HMMMM


OUCH! That tank configuration is hard to visualize...or maybe it's the magic box LOL

Moskito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.yellowdogracing.com
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2006, 07:52:57 AM »
Quote from: "ludedude"
The boondocker unit is a ECU piggyback unit that allows the addition and subtraction of fuel to the injectors while still maintaing the factory fuel curve and ability to compensate for air pressure and temperature, and engine temperature.

I'll need this because the air/fuel ratio will be bound to change with the different exhaust that will be incorporated to fit the pilot. Push button jetting...ahhh, I like it already  :D .


I hear that!!
I had to get a Power Commander for the R1 bike to modify the injection curves.  I can modify right there on the fly with a small box and buttons or I can d/l - u/l curves via a USB port and a lap top.  I think it may modify both the injectors and the ignition curves - full 3-d mapping, as they call it. (gotta read more and talk to Jay - he's done it a bunch)

Pretty amazing when you think about it - from changing out pieces of brass with holes in them to pushing buttons on a black box to change jetting.

I like technology!  :cheers:
Moskito - Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming \'WOW-What a Ride!\'

dhjunkie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
100% opposed piston orientation
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2006, 07:33:43 PM »
two cylinder ski engines are not 100% opposed.  They are about 40* less that 180* degrees of each other, hence the vibration they give off.  Just like a hardly davidson.  Now I can take some pictures of the 2-1 pipe that will out perform most twin pipe ski's  :)   its all in the scavaging effect.  I basically stole the idea off the bombardier team secret squirrel stuff  from a ski site.  :)

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2006, 10:13:25 PM »
Cool, yup I'm interested  :wink:

Ozpilot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2006, 10:24:32 PM »
Here are a few pics that may help you think in different directions on the clutch support question.  I made up a simple torque rod using some OEM skidoo parts that were not expensive.  It seemed to make a fair amount of difference.  

The two things it seems to me you need to do are 1. hold the enginie and trans apart (by holding the two clutches apart) and, 2. support the "floating" ends of the shafts.  It seems to me that if you used something like the HRD setup with something else like my torque rod or the Redline setup there would be little or no need for anything else.

I like the isolation system Redline uses.  I haven't worked out how the drive from the crank to the drive clutch works yet - obviously has some type of rubber in it to absorb vibration and it must deal with the movement of the crank relative to the frame as well.  I'm not sure it would be a good idea on my Rotax engines though as Bombardier uses a TRA clutch (which has a fairly high mass) with a rubber "dampner" (spelling?) fitted.  But, on an Arctic Cat engine it may be a good idea (not sure you want the extra weight and size in a pilot conversion though).

As I said - these photos are just to help you look at different ideas - I haven't come up with anything I see as a good setup - although I'll think more about it when I change engines in my 2 seater (one day...)

Ozpilot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2006, 10:39:23 PM »
Lude,  I hear what you say about 2 into 1 pipes!  I have made plenty of exhaust systems for 2 and 4 strokes and for competition as well as for the road and I could never imagine 2 into 1 expansion chambers could work at all.  But, the one on the Drak seems good.  They seem very sensitive though.  When I spoke to DH at Coal Creek he told me what he had learnt - it will make good sense to you!!  

When I bought the 2 seater Alain told me several 2 seaters with the 700 engine melted pistons and nobody could work out why.  They run a Dynoport pipe (specially designed for Draks) which (I'm sure, having put them side by side) is identical to that used on the single seaters.  However, the Y section is a little different (they are angled up slightly higher as space is not as tight).  After many blow-ups, Alain found that lengthening the pipe 12mm where it goes onto the Y section elimated the problem.  Talk about touchy!!

I really think 2 pipes has gotta be better than one but if the single is designed well (or well adapted to your machine) I'd give it a try - they actually do work (somehow!?!) and they save a lot of space.  Mine doesn't sound bad either!

ludedude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Karma: 0
    • View Profile
600EFI LT, the 600EFI transplant portion
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 04:09:21 PM »
Thanks Oz.

If I had more room I'd look into that redline setup. Add a new taper shaft to the crank, move the clutch away from the engine so that there's more room between and make an enclosed belt drive system. Don't think I have room for that.

I need to see if I can pick up an electric start kit for cheap, don't really need it, but want to make sure I leave room so that it can be added.

There's just enough snow down now, with more on the way. Time to fix a couple mounts in the sled and put it back in and see how the engine pulls :)

I need to take some measurements for the mounting holes in the bottom of the engine before it goes back in, and get a rough idea how long the new tranny shaft should be. Then into can go back into the sled for awhile. I'll pull and split the tranny and remove the inout shaft, and make a new one up. With a 1" straight shaft, roughly to length. Thinking I'll make the first one from aluminum just for fitting purposes, make some spacers up, so I can step it out to where needed to align the engine up where I want it in the frame, leaving some room for a few shims on the inside. Then make  the final one from a suitable material.