Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum

General Category => Formula Cross and Extreme => Topic started by: Adnoh on June 18, 2007, 09:38:25 AM

Title: chasing darkart
Post by: Adnoh on June 18, 2007, 09:38:25 AM
Newbie here (aka Probie). I have had the pleaseure of chasing the tigers in the sand and it was enjoyable. My 89 pilot does ok but no match for the tigers in close corter combat. I a'm building a tiger chaser and any input would help. My 89 has works with cans,standard arms, port and head work with reeds 39mm and pipe and hrd drive. I noticed that after chasing quads for years the tigers require a differnt set up from shocks to clutch and driving style. Any tips? Thanks
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: LiveWire on June 20, 2007, 02:46:27 PM
My long travel front will improve cornering if you are having trouble there. The best although pricey clutch setup is a 102C with a Heel Clicker kit installed.
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: Adnoh on June 20, 2007, 05:11:44 PM
long travle a must. chasing with stock travle using works shocks with cans. Will the long in front with stock rear work well. turing now is good. never used comet just power blocks alt and hrd. What advantages does the comet with klicker have and do. I was waiting to see Turbos long travle and see how it worked before moving forward in that direction. Many say that the long travle is sweet just never seen one in action other than put put. The cylinder mod will be ported toward high end using rev pipe will the comet help take better advantage of port and pipe work. Any driven recomendations. I'am like five alive "need more input". FYI I drive pilots 89 and 90.  Any info one new rear brake line. Last chase of tigers over heated brakes a little and bango bolt loosened up or washer gave way under hard breaking peddle got mushy and found leak by caliper. New bolt and washer fixed it and drained and cleaned system and are trying new dot 4 syn. Just thought maybe a better rear braided line might help as well. Opion please. If you havent noticed yet I tend to babble a little and tend to pick your and other brains alot. I also tend to throw out a lot of ideas for review some good and some are you crazy. Always feel free to speak your mind as long as it's in a constructive way or "your just nuts will also do". Thanks   Rich
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: LiveWire on June 21, 2007, 07:13:52 PM
Hoodlum loves his LT front with Works rears. Motobowman just got his rear shocks, but has my LT kit in front. Atvnut is currently racing an FL350 with my LT kit in front and rear Works. Did you get your Works from me? I don't sell the same ones than if ordered from Works directly. Mine are a custom part number. I have a pair coming to test that will give even more travel than those, probably about 9". The shocks are actually capable of more with the suspension movement being the limit. I will be basing my long travel rear off that shock. If the LT machine you have seen are ATVRs setup, it does not steer as well as stock and my kit steers better than stock.

The Pilot porting I do adds a lot of top end power and would best be used with a rev pipe. The 102C for the Pilot has a poor out of the box calibration compared to the one for the FL350. That is why the Power Bloc ends up being more commonly used. The 102C tune is good for racing though. It can be made much better with different Comet arms. The Heel Clicker arms have a patented feature that makes the machine pull extremely hard out of the hole, even with a fairly low engagement. The kit comes with three springs and the arms are adjustable at three points. You can tweak take off, mid speed and high speed clutching. When I installed it in my Pilot, it went from 3 lengths behind my modified FL350 in a 300 foot drag race to 1 length ahead. I then put a Heel Clicker kit in my FL350. Even though their drag race performance has improved greatly, both have lower engagements than before so they can be putted through the trails easily.

I have rear braided lines for the Pilot in stock. That is just the one from the hard line to the caliper in the back. I can get the ones from the yoke to the hard line, but need to order them. I had one set made to try out before getting more made. They did work out, but I sold that set. The end on the yoke is not a standard end because the cast yoke is so thick. They will improve braking, but I'm not sure if it will reduce boiling. When looking at fluid, look at dry boiling point. Wet boiling point is what is normally advertised. However, that is irrelevant if you change your fluid annually. I just got some really high temp stuff for Atvnut. It was 600 degrees I think, but $16 a bottle.
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: Adnoh on June 24, 2007, 02:17:21 PM
Thanks for the info. Good reading. I do anual fluid perges I feel the rear bango/washer failure may have beed caused to to over heating and stressing the rear. The line is just the rubber unit to the caliper I was thinking about. Is the stainless posted on your site or is a phone call in order. The entire barke system was rebuilt three years ago when I was on tail end of project. Sound like there is a advantage using the comet on rev setup. I a lower engagment the way to go on a rev set up tho. On the rev set up what the power range( rpm range) you would be running with the comet. my porting is set for 4500 engagment and power range from 6200 to 7600 with torgue pipe at 171 comp. Would the rev and comet help in this range or would new ported cylinder help. Thanks Rich
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: Adnoh on June 24, 2007, 02:22:39 PM
Sorry. On the rear set up the steve special have a longeer stroke than factory works. Is there a greater sag with the longer stroke. I feal the works need more sag than they come set up for. I have mine set up to sag 30% but would to have mabye 40%. I Wonder if they offer a  non preload spring kit for that shock. Thought? I did change transcition spacer to set them to stay softer longer. The drakart chasing setup need to run softer set up verses chasing the quads. They run faster striahgts and sweep in the cornor.
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: LiveWire on June 25, 2007, 07:29:54 AM
The rear line is not one the site right now. I have sold several, but have not got in a mode where I am making sure they are on the shelf at all times. I believe the rear line is way more important than the front because I feel the heat affects the rubber.

The base Comet clutch is around 4500 engagement. So if you are at that now, you would not be bothered by that as some are. That has been common practice for sleds to engage near the start of the power band, but trail riders hate it. The Comet would give better back shifting because it has less internal friction than a Power Bloc. If you have ever been clipping across flat ground then went up a hill and the engine bogged, you have experienced a back shifting issue. The additional torque on the driven clutch increases the belt tension. The drive clutch should open up to even the belt tension back out. When setting up a drive clutch for optimal acceleration, the internal friction is overcome by using heavier weights than would be needed if it were not for the friction. To back shift, not only does the internal friction need to be overcome, but so do the heavier weights. So the extra friction has a double impact in negatively affecting back shift performance. The Heel Clicker setup improves the efficiency of a 102C to keep the engine within the optimal RPM range, mainly at lower speeds. With a lower engagement, the setup does not let the clutch up shift until the RPMs come up. Think of it as driving a manual transmission. With a High engagement, you are revving the engine then dumping the clutch. With the Heel Clicker setup, you are letting the clutch out at a lower RPM, but holding 1st gear until the top of your power curve before shifting. A CVT is even better though because it shift a very small amount just past peak power keeping the engine at peak power rather than just within a range above and below it.

Most of the additional travel is droop travel with the rear FL400 Works. I typically had reduced the preload on Works shocks to 0. They commonly have 3/8" preload. On my long travel setup, that equates to 3/4" wheel travel. A Works engineer advised me that they add that pre-load intentionally because the wheel weight alone may not drop the wheel fast enough to utilize all the droop travel. So I had them change out the spring to a softer one to lower the ride height yet maintain 3/8" preload.
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: Adnoh on June 25, 2007, 10:35:14 AM
Sound like the comet mave work bette with the rev pacage. I concer that the preload is too stiff on shock. do they offer a O as you have done and a rebound valving change or adjuster to help. This may be alredy done with your shock set up offering better control and less haula lu ya over we go. Thanks steve this will help with new set up. I will call you and check stock and lead time when ready to proceed. I have to have it ready for fall to chase the tigers.
Title: Re: chasing darkart
Post by: LiveWire on June 25, 2007, 11:15:30 AM
The shock setup they list for the FL400 is horrible. To get custom shocks made, you fill out a sheet with dimensions based on the type of suspension you have. If a new application that they will sell more for such as the new Razr, they will save the setup. From what I understand, the person chose the wrong suspension style for the Pilot. The suspension style chosen had a higher lever ratio than the nearly 1:1 ratio of the Pilot. So the shocks are setup way too stiff. Like a magnitude stiff, not just a little off. That would also be why your ride height would be off. The springs are so stiff that they do not compress to a proper ride height. The spring rate needed is so much softer with my setup, they use two main springs. One is a very short main spring and one normal length. The short one takes the place of two tender springs. Tender springs are actually higher spring rates than main springs. The initial rate is lower overall because of using multiple springs. When the cross over collars bottom, you go to only one. If the main was higher rate and the tender softer, the 2nd rate would be a large jump from the initial rate.