Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum

General Category => Pilot FL400R => Topic started by: odypilots on June 14, 2012, 03:02:30 PM

Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 14, 2012, 03:02:30 PM
Working it out at Moreland's MX in Stanton, MI, I lost drive to a rear wheel. Never good, I climb out to find the axle loose and clinking in the inner cup on the left side. A teardown shows the cage lost a piece, allowing a ball out, which allowed all of them to roam. Unless I find one easily, the 3rd machine will start to loose parts. As things go, I'm glad that it was the inner cage and not a  axle or outer CV, as being an ATVR long travel, the the inner stuff can be swapped out from a stocker. Time to pull both cups out of the trans as long as they're apart.
Title: Re: Buasted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 14, 2012, 08:03:10 PM
Lst time I checked,the inner cup was still aailable....Kinda pricy but you get the cup and cv internals....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 15, 2012, 06:36:01 AM
Oh, really? I must have been thinking of the 350, that the axle was only sold as a unit. I'm on the phone with my Honda dealer! Thanks!
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 15, 2012, 03:02:04 PM
The dealer said they show it in the exploded view, but no part number. He'd be glad to sell me an complete axle  for $770.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 15, 2012, 03:18:28 PM
42220-HE0-013  It's #5 on the parts fiche....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 20, 2012, 06:18:15 PM
Ahh, finally typing on a real keyboard again!! Obviously my dealer is clueless. He claims that part number refers to the (what I call) the inner race, that the cage holds the balls into. 200 and some dollars. So I ask if that's for the whole inner assembly, balls, cage, race and he says nope. Just the inside piece. Seems like a lot, as well as, if it's available at whatever the cast, why not offer the other pieces? It doesn't seem like that would be the only wear item in there.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 20, 2012, 06:39:45 PM
The cage and the race are 2 different things....The cage holds the balls in place,the race is what the balls roll in....The cup is the race....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 21, 2012, 10:45:38 AM
I see what you say about the cup being the race. What do you call the piece that is inside the cage, under the balls. That the snap ring keeps from sliding off the axle?

I just need to get into the dealer, since I'm calling things by their wrong names.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 21, 2012, 01:56:27 PM
I just looked over the drawing again as well as talking to my dealer,and now he and I both are convinced that #5 is the entire inner joint,including cup,balls,and cage....Should be the entire assemble ready to put on the axle shaft....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 21, 2012, 03:19:18 PM
Thank you for checking, Hoodlum. I really appreciate you posting that. I have a used assembly ready to go on, but new is my long term fix, after I shorten my shocks. Too much droop is allowing the axle to bang into the edge of the cup.

Dave C.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 21, 2012, 08:53:45 PM
Oooooo....Not good....By the way,you missed a GREAT St Joes trip this year.....Weather was great....It was actually too cool for the beach a couple of days,and wore long sleeves at night....Nothing close to your last experience....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 22, 2012, 09:08:49 AM
Good to hear you had good weather, St Joes is fun.

Dealer tells me the part number is for the cup only. He was quite sure. 25% restocking fee. I'm gonna ponder it for a while.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on June 22, 2012, 12:26:29 PM
I would tell him to order it....It doesn't cost them anything to send it back....Never heard of that restocking fee.....Want me to order one through my dealer? I might get one too for a spare...Might get a better price that way.....They usually give me a discount as well....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on June 22, 2012, 03:56:41 PM
Restocking fees are normal around here, but they usually waive them. I think I will just order it.

Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 07, 2012, 06:52:30 PM
As per my usual mo, I drug my feet on ordering the part, but Livewire ordered one, and Hoodlum and his parts guy were right. The part was the whole inner cv and cup, but oddly enough, it didn't come with the snap ring that retains the cup in the trans. I thought about going back to my dealer to inform them, but the chances that they would ever need that info for another customer is small, so screw it. Thanks to Hoodum and Livewire  for your efforts toward finding out the info. You are both stand up guys!
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Factory 45 on July 08, 2012, 12:09:53 PM
Odypilots...noticed you mentioned the droop length on the shocks you are running is pulling the cage all the way out to the end of the cup? Out of curiosity...what kind of shocks are you running? Is this setup on long travel? Or is it a shock that squeezes extra travel using all the oem arms and geometry...with the stock axles?
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 09, 2012, 04:30:00 AM
It's an ATV Racing long travel kit, and actually at droop the cage goes so far IN it allows the axle to bang the cup. The shocks are 12 inch travel Foxx Airs that are about 1 1/2 longer that the Kings that came with the package. Limit straps are one solution, but I plan to shorten the shocks with internal spacers. The short term answer is to tip the tops of the rear tires in which changes the angle to prevent the contact. Now that I think of it, that fix may allow the cage to  bottom out in the cup.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: hoodlum on July 09, 2012, 09:49:41 AM
Got any idea how much the cv likes before hitting the stop ring? If it has enough room,the cup could be machined down and a new ring slot put in....Or,the axle shaft could be cut,shortened,and re-welded.....
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: LiveWire on July 09, 2012, 10:41:09 AM
Maybe you can adjust the lateral links out longer. Generally speaking, those type joints can handle more angle than they normally are set up for if they are not plunged in. Also generally speaking, you get plunge on compression. So you have and can handle the most angle when the axle is out near the edge of the cup and it plunges as the angle is reduced. It is a cross groove joint like a VW Type I/II or Porsche 930. Those joints don't have retaining rings. The axle holds the inner race in.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 09, 2012, 01:23:55 PM
 I have lengthened the lower links, but the upper arm isn't adjustable, leading to the camber change.

And I had it wrong in my earlier post, tipping the rear tires in may allow the cage to hit the retaining ring, not bottom out. Is that what you are referring to by relocating the snap ring groove, Hoodlum?
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: LiveWire on July 09, 2012, 01:49:07 PM
Yeah, I realized that. I am kind of thinking it is the adjustment out, not the camber change specifically that helps. So if there was a way to adjust the upper arm out, that might get rid of the hit on the retaining ring. I am wondering if you can just remove the retaining ring, be careful until installed and let the axle keep the cage and race in the cup.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 09, 2012, 02:57:55 PM
This pic may help a little. I incounterd theame thing while playing around with the LT upper arm of atvr and there axle. I solved my issue by moving out theupper arm out and lenghtin the lowers.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Factory 45 on July 09, 2012, 04:34:34 PM
Does ATVR make the replacement arms with threaded ends and heims...or do you have to actually add length? Odypilots...did those guys tone down the MX course for buggies? I would imagine a set of whoops or a few big jumps would constantly smash the crap out of those cups...both @ droop and compressed? Or is the upward motion not presenting as much of an issue?
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 09, 2012, 06:09:15 PM
Yeah, I realized that. I am kind of thinking it is the adjustment out, not the camber change specifically that helps. So if there was a way to adjust the upper arm out, that might get rid of the hit on the retaining ring. I am wondering if you can just remove the retaining ring, be careful until installed and let the axle keep the cage and race in the cup.

I agree, it's the lengthening that does the job, the camber change is just a by product of not being able to lengthen the upper arm. On mine, the ring doesn't take the hit, it's the cup outside of the ring that gets it. It does mushroom the metal over the ring, so it can be tough to get the ring out. The cup would still be hit even if the ring was out. Unless you're saying take the ring out so it doesn't get hit by the cage from the inside after lengthening the top arm.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 09, 2012, 06:11:58 PM
This pic may help a little. I incounterd theame thing while playing around with the LT upper arm of atvr and there axle. I solved my issue by moving out theupper arm out and lenghtin the lowers.

That's it. I don't have the means to lengthen the upper, so it's easier for me to shorten the shocks.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 09, 2012, 06:20:23 PM
Does ATVR make the replacement arms with threaded ends and heims...or do you have to actually add length? Odypilots...did those guys tone down the MX course for buggies? I would imagine a set of whoops or a few big jumps would constantly smash the crap out of those cups...both @ droop and compressed? Or is the upward motion not presenting as much of an issue?

I don't know if the ATVR lowers are adjustable, but mine (used) came with adjustable lowers. The upper is fixed, though. Mine doesn't have a problem with the cage hitting the ring on maximum compression as of now, but may if the upper was lengthened. Does yours, Adnoh?

I haven't been back to the track that was so extreme, this broke on a track that's suitable for me.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 10, 2012, 07:24:19 AM
No mine does not hit either way. I built a gig so I could build my own after a few failures in the arm building dept. As you look at the pic and the distance of the CV from the face of the cup and the angle of the axle you can see how by bringin it out closer to the front the distance between the hcupand the axle increases and thus allowing additional angle or droop. There is a point where the lowers and the radius rod come into play playing a pat in cv bind in the outer joint. With adjustable units you can dial in the amont of travle and the bind point. This also plays a part in the ball joint bid of the hub assembly. As you go futher in droop the hubs vertacle set point needs to changed a little to keep it from binding. I mention this as it alos addresses the question of bind at compression. If not set correctlythe ball joint will bind before the cv at full compression. What I found was adjust things to cv bind at droop than adjus teh radius rod for 1/4" before bind and use this number as the shock extended lenght point. If you using exhisting upper shock mount points than measure the eye to eye of those point and subtract 1/8" Then move the assembly to full compression taking into acount the frams bottoming out position using the tire and wheel combonation and measure for your eye to eye for shock strok and than calculate your ride height poundage and bottom out poundage. I feel it does no good to go past framae bottoming as it can lead to a bad back and broken parts. If you have more stroke on the shock than your bottom out point than you need to add bump stops or shaft spacers unless you use  tire combnation that allowes for a increase in the bottom out number. Now looking at this there is more advantage in droop in relation to overall travle and it's set point. As you set up your rear arms using what ever combo this should be taken into account. I my case I not olny move the arm out I moved it back. It changes the rear asemblys arc of travle and balance front to rear. I'm not saying do this it just work for me and my set up. I was playing with an adjustable upper arm using a hiem in place of the no longeravalible ball joint however the increae in arm travle can not be matched to a a cv set up as yet. I can easly get 16 to 18" out of it. I think Odypilots on the correct path by limiting his travle via the shock for his set up. if he was to move the mount up to fix the bind at droop it would cause an issue in his bottom out point and could hurt. I pull a few more pics from the file on compression of the cv and axle to compare to the one I posted on droop. The axle plung is great. I also have a few pick using an angle finder to calculate the max anlges and the running angles of the stock axle assembly with the atvr axle.  If would evere cool off I will do some video to go with this discussiona dn some clearenc pic of the atvr and the longer upper.  Hopefully some one can build on this and improve the exhisting application.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 10, 2012, 07:48:50 AM
Thanks, Adnoh.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 10, 2012, 09:40:45 AM
Your welcome. I found a few pics to share. let us know what you ended up doing for futher reference.
There is some preety cool things going on in the pics if you look close. One can draw some conclusions from the pics.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 10, 2012, 09:42:37 AM
couple more pics
 I think I have a few vids of the 16 to 18 inch travle less axle assemblys I'll look.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 10, 2012, 10:13:35 AM
I found this one of the 16 to 16.5 range. I,ll keep diging through the files for more If anybody interested.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 10, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
Thanks for the info. The one I really wanted to see was the one at full droop, so I'm good. I wish I could be motivated to document that well.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 11, 2012, 05:51:22 PM
I could not find the one you need so I went to the garge and pulled the boot and took a few. If it's not what you need let me know and I get you what you need.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Adnoh on July 11, 2012, 06:10:42 PM
short vid of the clearence from full droop and cvbind
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: Factory 45 on July 12, 2012, 12:03:00 PM
Thanks for the info. The one I really wanted to see was the one at full droop, so I'm good. I wish I could be motivated to document that well.

Adnoh...you are the MAN :) :) :)
Not sure if there is ANYTHING you cant handle sir...You are TRULY a GRAND MASTER of the FL400.
Title: Re: Busted the cage in my inner cv on the LT
Post by: odypilots on July 12, 2012, 04:16:16 PM
Adnoh, THANK YOU! That really is going above and beyond! And sorry for my poor wording, I was saying your picture on page 2 already showed what I wanted to see, so I was good. Thanks again, and I hope to ride with you someday. Actually, I hope to ride with all you guys someday!