Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum

General Category => Odyssey FL350R => Topic started by: turbotexas on July 02, 2006, 09:52:06 PM

Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 02, 2006, 09:52:06 PM
I read an earlier post by 79 odyssy and thought it was comical how he used the term POOF KABOOM. well in my afternoon trip around the neighborhood I wass easing alond  as Happy as you please. I  kinda chuckled out load  about the  POOF KABOOM thing and guess what I heard...
POOF KAAAAAAAABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM...
Dang my luck, shoulda waited for the Digitron. :mad:
I went back and read 79odyssey's  post and he was able to get a compression reading. I might not be so lucky.  After dragging it home with the tractor, I  tried  to pull the pull starter  cord and it's locked up tight. I then pulled the plug, and found it was not tight in the head, actually came out with a good hard twist of the hand??? This was the second time I noticed the plug loose. First time I caught it while I was warming up. I heard some backfireing then, but not today.
I have taken  some pictures  of the plug and it looks to me the grey in the first 3-4 threads might be from where the extra  air came from...
I have never rebuilt any engine, so this will be my first. Can any one tell me how much in parts I might have to spend/versus paying someone who knows what they are doing would charge so I can wiegh the benifets out. Who would be the best to send it to? I am sure the local Honda shop in town could do it, but they don't have the odyssey experience.
Next question, is what have I done if I can't even pull the cord to get it turned over???
Thanks
David
Title: Rebuild
Post by: hoodlum on July 03, 2006, 12:36:37 AM
OH NO!!! That's not good buddy!!!!
I know that Randy Bridgewater at Odyssey salvage gets $250 and parts for a rebuild...Not sure about anyone else...Randy has my pilot engine as we speak...
Hoodlum
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: PilotSniper on July 03, 2006, 02:04:44 AM
Been there, done that! :( It's not fun, but it'll get you to know your engine a whole lot better!!!

Good luck with the rebuild.
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: odypilots on July 03, 2006, 10:12:07 AM
I'm sorry to hear it, I know you just got it. It sounds as though some of your piston has broken off and gotten jammed in the bottom end.
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 03, 2006, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: "odypilots"
I'm sorry to hear it, I know you just got it. It sounds as though some of your piston has broken off and gotten jammed in the bottom end.


I was afraid something horrendous like that!! That's my luck, when I screw something up, I go all out!!! I can hope the the engine Gods will smile on me and make this an easy redo. I am going to pull today and send off and have someone who knows what they are doing fix it right. I have an old polaris 250 that I blew the engine on that I will use forr my Cherry rebuild...
To many Projects Not Enough Time...
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 03, 2006, 07:10:41 PM
Well I didn't have to much trouble pulling the motor out. Was easier than I hoped!!! Before I boxed it up, I got real curious, and pulled the head off...
See pictures below. The plug hole is really stripped, might not be reusable. I was wanting the liquid cooled head anyway. I now have an excuse to get one.
Tried to pull the jug off but my tools seemed to not be made for getting those 4 buggers off... I could get the drive clutch to move a little, but there is really something in the bottom end that gets in the way. what if any specialty tool gets these nuts off of the cylinder? My wrench was hitting the edge of the fins, and I quit for fear I would strip the nuts...
I will box it up this evening, and ship out Wednesday before I go back out to California. i was so looking forwaard to the trip with the buggy on my trailer. I guess this will give me time to get the radiator installed, and finish up all the other minor cleanups. I sure wish I would have changeedthe oil before I rode so hard...
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: ludedude on July 03, 2006, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: "turbotexas"
To many Projects Not Enough Time...


Hey! I resemble that remark!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 03, 2006, 11:24:05 PM
Sorry to hear your bad news. I guess I should have warned you, babying along at 1/4 to 1/3 for long distances without burping the throttle will build alot of piston temps(enough to seize a piston). After you get an EGT you will see it on the guage. Hopefully it is just a stuck piston and nothing else. Top end rebuilds are normally $150-200, if done right. A rebuild shop will cost more, ofcourse.  Let me know if I can help or do something for you.

I doubt you shattered the piston skirt and wedged anything. Been there, done that and have pictures and the Tee shirt to prove it! LOL You should have CHUNKS of piston on top of the piston dome when you pulled the head off, if you did that.

Gary
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 01:31:07 AM
What do you mean by burping the throttle???
I really didn't have much load  on the machine. it's pretty flat around here.  I wasn't at full throttle maybe 60/70%
i believe it might be worse than I originally thought. after I pulled the motor I went to drain the engine balance oil as directed from the service manual, and I might have got 4-5 drops out of the thing... The previous owner used Honda gear lube which is red and thick. Every time I checked the Dipstick there was oil on  it. I  NEVER wiped it and redipped it... The gummy red stuff always appeeared fresh and i ASSUMED it was full...so I never wiped and rechecked the levels...
I was going to change the oils that evening, since it was raining.
I could press down on the piston it would go in to the cylinder about 1/4" and  SLOWLY raise back to the  top. I could get the drive shaft  to move about 1/3 rotation, so maybe I'll get luckyand have not lost the crankshaft or rod.
I  still havn't got the 4 bolts loose to pull the jug. I won't  bee  able to see for  myself  how bad I screwed it up...
Live and Learn
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 04, 2006, 09:54:22 AM
Live and learn, great way to look at it. I like the attitude.

 OK, "burping" is simply cracking the throttle 1/2 or more open and immediatly releasing it, usually several times. This action dumps a cool fresh charge of fuel and air, cooling the piston. I am a burping machine when I ride! LOL Depending on your jetting, most 350 pistons get the hottest on a long 1/3 steady ride or long wide open run then just completely letting off the throttle(all the heat built by the run has nowhere to go). Thats where a liq cooling system helps and a few burps cool the piston immediatly. When ever you get the EGT you will see exactly what I am talking about. You can watch it happen.

Next, When ever I have a failure for an unknown reason, I like to do a leakdown test. That way I know its not a bad main seal so it will not happen again right after a rebuild. It took me several new top end rebuilds in a row for that one to sink in! LOL Guess I have to learn the hard way.

When I do a top end pull, I pull the drive clutch, seat, air dams, exhaust and carb/filter first. It just makes getting at the 4 nuts much easier(less cuts on the ol knuckles too).  You should not have any trouble with the e 2 exhaust side nuts like this. The other 2 you will need either a stubby box end 14MM or a crows foot 14MM. the crows foot is the best to break the torque with because it uses a ratchet and extension, IMHO.

 The jug should slide straight up and off the piston and rod, depending on how siezed it is. I have never had any real problems. You may want to pack some shop towels under it to help catch any "shavings/crunks" from falling into the bottom end before seperation. Hopefully the bore is fine and you can get away with a hone on the cylinder and a new piston.

This is a perfect time to do a rod and crank brearing check for play. I said fore-play, LOL.  :wink: You may want to to pull the engine for a complete inspection and it will help you learn more too. Pull the belt shields and starter wires, recoil handle and probably something else that I am forgetting too. I would rinse the bottom end with mixed gas and dump it on a light colored towel to see if anything is coming out. spin the crank to check/feel for anything in the bearings too. Flush it several times until clean.

Take lots of damage pictures for us if you go this route. This is what I do but by no means, don't feel like you have to take my advise. I am just trying to save you some money that the rebuilder will charge you to do. Hell, you might learn something and enjoy working on it too! :P

Gary
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 04, 2006, 09:58:04 AM
Sorry so long winded on the previous post. Anyway, the balancer oil has probably migrated to your starter and recoil area. We can tell you how to do a mod to fix that when you are ready with the engine on the bench. If you pull the starter and engine, let me know.
Gary
Title: Balancer oil
Post by: hoodlum on July 04, 2006, 10:09:29 AM
Does anyone by chance have any pics of the vaccum hose connection from the starter to the balancer case?
After reading about this several times in the past, I decided to check out my new to me 350...The vent line from the starter is not connected to the case...It just hangs down beside the case...I can't even find the hole where it is supposed to connect...Might not be good, but maybe this is why my original starter is still working...The manual doesn't give any pics either......
Hoodlum
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 12:32:24 PM
Doh I am sooo  blonde...I didn't use the box end side of my wrench because it fit into my cheater pipe easier...LOL
Title: Re: Balancer oil
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 02:58:48 PM
Quote from: "Hoodlum"
Does anyone by chance have any pics of the vaccum hose connection from the starter to the balancer case?
After reading about this several times in the past, I decided to check out my new to me 350...The vent line from the starter is not connected to the case...It just hangs down beside the case...I can't even find the hole where it is supposed to connect...Might not be good, but maybe this is why my original starter is still working...The manual doesn't give any pics either......
Hoodlum


Mine was hanging off the side also
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 03:53:00 PM
OK I got the jug off and boy what a mess...  shavings everywhere. chunks in the crankcase, wire??? and lordie knows what else...
I  don't have a clutch puller so I could not get into the crankcase...
here are some pictures.
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 04:43:21 PM
More pictures, more questions...
I have cleaaned the big chunks from  the crankcase and have full rotation. I hope that  means the balance gears are still intact!!! i do not have a clutch puller, So  I am wondering how to clean out the crankcase??? can I just flush it out with solvent, and let it drain out the drain plug, or will this just move shavings into new places and create more headaches/work?
I remember  seeing the directions on the starter  plug to keep oil out, but can't remember where???

Still trying  to visualize the Burbing thing... are you killing the motor and turning back on real quick??? By turning the switch off/on
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 04, 2006, 10:16:14 PM
When I walk through the valley of darkness, I will fear no evil.... now that is an evil sieze!  :shock:  I have never seen one rip the wrist pin through the bottom of the piston before. It has my vote for the worst looking piston/ashtray for this season.

The wire is one of the circlips(holds the wristpin centered in the piston). There should be another somewhere, probably still in the groove. I wonder if the rebuilder didn't get it fully installed into the seat/groove. That might have let the wrist pin slide over to one side, then ripped it down and apart. Just a theory.

I would avoid harsh solvents like carb cleaners, they may make the seals brittle. I use gas to flush things out. Be sure to keep spinning the rod/crank and sloshing back and forth while flushing to get everything out. I would dump it on a white towel when you think its clean just to be sure(don't tell the wife about the towel, they normally don't think its as good idea as we do)LOL

Take a few well lit shots of the cylinder bore. Any deep gouges that a finger nail can snag on?

Don't worry, we can get you up and going soon.
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 04, 2006, 10:56:27 PM
Yea I won, I won!!! To put your fears to rest, I ain't married, so no wife to piss off over a silly towel!!!
I am proud to have won the piston award...
there is a BIG gouge on the piston as seen on picture #15 but nothing as severe inside the jug. There is alot of carbon buildup on the exhaust port, and even on the dome of the head. I would like to get all that cleaned up. The other wire was still in a crescent shape, and was in the mess. i can see the pin was still in the crankshaft/rod.
How do I determine if my free play in my crankshaft is ok? It moves a tad, but I don't know how to measure it.

Quote from: "Nuke Em"
When I walk through the valley of darkness, I will fear no evil.... now that is an evil sieze!  :shock:  I have never seen one rip the wrist pin through the bottom of the piston before. It has my vote for the worst looking piston/ashtray for this season.
The wire is one of the circlips(holds the wristpin centered in the piston). There should be another somewhere, probably still in the groove. I wonder if the rebuilder didn't get it fully installed into the seat/groove. That might have let the wrist pin slide over to one side, then ripped it down and apart. Just a theory.

I would avoid harsh solvents like carb cleaners, they may make the seals brittle. I use gas to flush things out. Be sure to keep spinning the rod/crank and sloshing back and forth while flushing to get everything out. I would dump it on a white towel when you think its clean just to be sure(don't tell the wife about the towel, they normally don't think its as good idea as we do)LOL

Take a few well lit shots of the cylinder bore. Any deep gouges that a finger nail can snag on?

Don't worry, we can get you up and going soon.
Title: Poof!!!!
Post by: hoodlum on July 05, 2006, 01:26:11 AM
OUCH!!!!   Don't worry about play in the crank, or the shavings in the bottom...Box that dude up and send it off....With that much debris floating around,I wouldn't waste the time and $ on a top end...Get the bottom too while you got it apart...Atleast you won't have to worry about trusting someone elses word on the condition of the engine, and it's supposed reliability...You'll know what you have...
While you are waiting on it to get back,read everything you can find about jetting and how it works...You probably won't understand it at first (I didn't), but keep going over it, and it will all start to make sense....
Once you get a new engine and get it jetted accordingly, then you can get used to the sound and feel of it...Then the next time something goes wrong, you will be able to hear and feel something out of the ordinary usually before major damage happens...
Good luck..
Hoodlum
Title: REBUILDER?????
Post by: turbotexas on July 06, 2006, 10:55:59 PM
OK I have decided to send it off, but who to??? I want it done right.  I  want it done to last, no shortcuts. I realize i COULD do it cheaper myslf, but with my job, I would rather spend my free time riding on my days off instead of chasing down parts etc. I want a dependable engine and the next time the piston goes out I will know all else is still good.
I know the  water cooled  head will be abouut $800. I want the oil out of the starter mod also and the bottom end  redone ONLY IF IT NEEDS IT.
Being new here i am asking ya'll to refer me to the right rebuilder.
I have thought of livewire or Odysalvage, or ATV Racing out West.  Can't find there location though. I will swing  by the house tomorrow and pick up the motor and ship out Saturday!!!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: Moskito on July 06, 2006, 11:36:19 PM
That's not a seizure....  I'm guessing that it was old, tired and over-reved.  Look at all the carbon colored blow by on the piston below the rings.

Piston just didn't wanna play no-mo...  :cry:

I would probably send it out to either Livewire or ATV Racing (http://www.atvracing1.com) - 623-516-8640 - talk to Neil.  Luke would, more than likely, be the guy that's rebuilding it.

If you're gonna be in the Phoenix area anytime soon, they're up on the north side, just a block east of I-17 and north off the Deer Valley exit.
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 06, 2006, 11:43:34 PM
Ed and Sahra at EEE are probably my first choice(by reputation only)if I had to send an engine off. $800 for liq cooling!!! Sounds way too high to me. You can get a used liq head from Ebay for $100-150, radiator for another $20 max, $50 max for a pump, $25 for hose, clamps, wire, coolant,ect. Hell, $200 and you should be in there.

I may be opening a can of worms by offering to do your engine but why not. I have rebuilt several 350s over the last 10 years and could do it blind folded. I could even do a mild or racey port job too. If you run out of options, let me know. I'll take care of a board member! :D

Gary
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 07, 2006, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: "Moskito"
That's not a seizure....  I'm guessing that it was old, tired and over-reved.  Look at all the carbon colored blow by on the piston below the rings.

Piston just didn't wanna play no-mo...  :cry:

I would probably send it out to either Livewire or ATV Racing (http://www.atvracing1.com) - 623-516-8640 - talk to Neil.  Luke would, more than likely, be the guy that's rebuilding it.

If you're gonna be in the Phoenix area anytime soon, they're up on the north side, just a block east of I-17 and north off the Deer Valley exit.


The guy who had it before me rode maybe 40 hours in two years time. I have had it about 3/4 weeks and got at least 5 hours on it, so yea it was due.. i  am going to CA next  week, I might call  them. Maybe drop off/pick up in same ttrip!!!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 07, 2006, 12:19:12 AM
Quote from: "Nuke Em"
Ed and Sahra at EEE are probably my first choice(by reputation only)if I had to send an engine off. $800 for liq cooling!!! Sounds way too high to me. You can get a used liq head from Ebay for $100-150, radiator for another $20 max, $50 max for a pump, $25 for hose, clamps, wire, coolant,ect. Hell, $200 and you should be in there.

I may be opening a can of worms by offering to do your engine but why not. I have rebuilt several 350s over the last 10 years and could do it blind folded. I could even do a mild or racey port job too. If you run out of options, let me know. I'll take care of a board member! :D

Gary

Thanks Gary, that is a good option to have. The kit was offered by one of the regular advertisers/contributers here on these forums. I would rather get it all at one time, one source. i don't have much luck with used parts  on flea-bay. once i learn more about this stuff I will be better at picking on e-bay. i have been looking for parts on ebay, need to get a good collection. a good suggestion list would be neat!!!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: Moskito on July 07, 2006, 05:28:12 PM
Quote from: "Nuke Em"
Ed and Sahra at EEE are probably my first choice(by reputation only)if I had to send an engine off.

Ooohhh.... I forgot all about EEE - probably because I've never used them.   I have yet to hear of a bad experience other than they may take a while and are hard to get ahold of sometimes
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 12, 2006, 01:40:26 AM
Well I sent the motor off today to ATV Racing only because I go out there often. It will be easier to get service etc. since  i can pull up to thier doorstep. I am looking forward to the day when I can do all this myself, but am still needing to hone my skills. I also need to invest in some more tools too!!!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: nuke em on July 12, 2006, 12:41:16 PM
I am sure they will take good care of you. Keep us posted!
Title: poof kaboom
Post by: turbotexas on July 13, 2006, 12:12:52 PM
I have heard good things about them. i like the fact that I  can get to them easily. Saves me shipping costs. I still haven't figured out what  you mean by burbing the throttle???
I have ludedude  looking for cables for a digitron. I am thinking of a new carb, mikuni 35mm???
I am still researching a waterpump, but no luck. radiators are easy to find.
just haven't figured what size...tryingto find what  every one else is using.
Title: fl350
Post by: Weed on July 13, 2006, 03:00:35 PM
http://p-o-ps.com/pops/viewtopic.php?t=1206

Heres a link to my set up.