Honda Odyssey and Pilot Forum

General Category => Odyssey FL250 => Topic started by: tuckersteel on January 01, 2004, 06:19:03 PM

Title: Hard starting
Post by: tuckersteel on January 01, 2004, 06:19:03 PM
I have a 350 which requires dumping some fuel down the air intake to get it to start when it is cold. Once it is running, it will start no problem within the first few cranks. I need some advice on where to get started to solve this problem.

 Tucker
Title: Hard starting
Post by: ludedude on January 01, 2004, 07:39:14 PM
Loosing the fuel in the bowl after sitting for a couple days?

Loosen the drain screw on the card and see if any fuel runs out. It should. If not....leaky drain?

Low float?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: 350nut on January 24, 2004, 10:07:52 PM
I agree, have you checked the float levels?hows your fuel pump?have you replaced it lately?have you checked the fuel pressure, it should be a steady stream like the size of a pencil but in a pulse form.if you need a carb stock in great shape email me I got 1 for you in perfect shape.Try to disassemply the carb and CHECK the internals out, it sounds to me that your carb is the problem.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on January 25, 2004, 10:20:29 PM
This is interesting reading. I have 2 350s and both are exactly like this. I also have 2 250s and that are the same. If any of them sit for more than a couple of days or so, they will not start without "priming". I have rebuilt the carbs on all 4. The 250s we bought brand new in '84 and they've always done this. I got the 350s about a year ago and just figured this was normal. Now, they (the 350s) will start with the starters, but only after much cranking. I just figured that I'd save on battery and starter wear (anybody that has taken a starter out knows why starter life is of utmost importance!) by "priming" them.

So, you're saying that 350s should start right up, even after they've sat for a considerable period of time? I've always wondered where the fuel goes ... it acts like the bowls are completely empty. I've tried all kinds of fixes ... turning the gas off after hoping it wasn't "siphoning" back INTO the tank, etc.

I don't think it's the float levels, they run perfectly otherwise ... why would the 250s be any different?

Oh, BTW, the fuel lines are always empty also.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: 350nut on January 26, 2004, 06:07:41 PM
If your lines are empty, CHECK the 3 way valve in the fuel line, make sure it is operating properly.I would bet if it is, your float needs to be changed.Also, are the carbs stock, aftermarket?If they are stock, CHECK the throat in them- there should be a plastic guide for the slide in there, if it isnt there, the slide will rotate around in the carb, you wont let the bowls fill up with fuel because tyhe slide isnt sitting in the proper location, thus not allowing fuel to go INTO the bowls.Try this, after they sit for a day or 2, before you start them drain the bowls,if there isnt fuel in there, your float level and float valve are bad.If there is ample fuel in there, REPLACE the 3 way valve and buy a rebuild kit for your pump, there really cheap at partsfish.com or randy at odysseysalvage.com.You can also try this as well---afetr sitting, take the fuel line of the carb, CHECK for fuel in the line,if there is thats good, if non try cranking it, the fuel should be there within a couple cranks of the motor,if there isnt ample fuel pressure your pump is bad or as I stated your 3 way valve isnt allowing the fuel to get to your carb and it is just recycling it back to your tank.Also, are your gas caps vents operating properly, a bad cap will cause a condition like this as well, have you checked them out?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on January 27, 2004, 03:40:30 PM
OK, here we go, line by line:
 
>If your lines are empty, CHECK the 3 way valve in the fuel line, make sure it is operating properly.
 :arrow: They seem to be ok. I had a bad one with the 250s and got a real education on how they should be hooked up and working (I got a bad one when I ordered a replacement ... that's another story for anothre time ... I just about never figured it out)

>I would bet if it is, your float needs to be changed.Also, are the carbs stock, aftermarket?If they are stock, CHECK the throat in them- there should be a plastic guide for the slide in there, if it isnt there, the slide will rotate around in the carb, you wont let the bowls fill up with fuel because tyhe slide isnt sitting in the proper location, thus not allowing fuel to go INTO the bowls.
 :arrow: Stock carbs on both the 350s and 250s. BTW, these are completely stock except for the air box mod on the 350s and subsequent required jetting changes. I'm pretty competent at rebuilding the carbs and float levels/float valve settings. The plastic guide is in place for all 4 and seem to be doing their job.

>Try this, after they sit for a day or 2, before you start them drain the bowls,if there isnt fuel in there, your float level and float valve are bad.If there is ample fuel in there, REPLACE the 3 way valve and buy a rebuild kit for your pump, there really cheap at partsfish.com or randy at odysseysalvage.com.
 :arrow: Again, there is not any fuel in the bowls nor the lines. And, I'm pretty sure all 4 3-way valves are good to go.

>You can also try this as well---afetr sitting, take the fuel line of the carb, CHECK for fuel in the line,if there is thats good, if non try cranking it, the fuel should be there within a couple cranks of the motor,if there isnt ample fuel pressure your pump is bad or as I stated your 3 way valve isnt allowing the fuel to get to your carb and it is just recycling it back to your tank.Also, are your gas caps vents operating properly, a bad cap will cause a condition like this as well, have you checked them out?

 :arrow: Now this I haven't tried yet. I suppose the pumps could be bad ... but 4 bad pumps? Seems unlikely but I will CHECK this out with the 350s. Note that all 4 run great once I get them running. As for the bad cap, I had that happen with one of the 250s. Took a long time for me to figure that out ... it would run just fine for about 15 sec to a couple mins and then just quit. Was nice to have spare parts to swap out. I'll CHECK out the 350s caps, though. I would imagine that I could just remove the caps and try cranking them over? My fuel lines are clear, it would be quite obvious I would think.

Thanks for your suggestions, I've lived with the 250s doing this since they were brand new. I just figured the 350s were the same.
Title: hard starting
Post by: 350nut on March 23, 2004, 09:02:08 AM
hey, you ever figure the problem out with the hard starting?was it the floats, pumps, 3 way valves?Are you still having the same problem?Have you replaced all the fuel lines by chance, if the are weakened by sitting there may be peep hole leaks that are causing you to lose "prime"in them,meaning the pump has to work that much harder to fill the fuel bowls in the carbs at initial start-up.Get back to us, I am very curious on this and havent seen a posting for you in a while.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on March 25, 2004, 03:26:25 PM
Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner.  I tried all the suggestions and nothing.   The carbs (or rather the float bowls) seem to be completely empty.  The fuel lines were all replaced with clear line (like you suggested, the original lines were crap ... but that had already been done), so you can easily see if fuel is flowing.  There seems to be a fair amount "squirting" when turning over, but it does seem to take several "cranks" for that to happen.  

If I dribble just a little fuel down through the air cleaner, it will fire immediately and generally quit.  One more dribble and it runs like it's been running all the time.

It really seems as if the pumps were weak or something.  But why would both go at the same time.  On the other hand, both run great once they're started.

Oh well, off to the dunes this weekend, I'll experiment some more.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: ludedude on March 25, 2004, 04:58:39 PM
I think that there is a fuel flow test in the Pilot manual, is there one in the FL350 manual......take the line off and measure how much fuel comes out when you crank the egine for so many seconds....

How about putting a primer bulb in line like often done on older sleds?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: 350nut on March 25, 2004, 06:11:09 PM
The diaprams inside the pumps will deteriorate over time, the pumps should stream fuel out like a steady squirt,not intermentant.If you are priming the carbs and the motor stays running it may indeed be that the pumps diaprams are weak and cannot pump enough for start up, but are suppying enough fuel to keep it running.Does it run out or is it fuel starving when you go on long passes under full throttle?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on March 26, 2004, 04:44:54 PM
Lude ... I think the old bulb thing might be my best choice.  Didn't know snowmobiles had them, but my little "toy" boat's tank uses one.

Mudbogger ... They do not run out of gas.  We made a full throttle pass down the entire wash we run in at the dunes ... probably about 2 miles wide open with no problems.  BTW, all this info applies to both my 350s, they are virtually identical in this regard.  One has maybe 30 hours on it, the other I did a top end job on it, 1st over lots of hours but still on the original tires.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: ludedude on March 26, 2004, 04:55:13 PM
let us know if it works
Title: Hard starting
Post by: on March 27, 2004, 10:50:31 AM
Have you actually checked the fuel bowl levels, i THINK THEY ARE 16MM or something to that, its in the manual.I agree, if the pumps were bad, it would starve for fuel so mudboggers idea ok but seems not like the problem.Get back to us,PLEASE.
Title: hard starting cold
Post by: redrider on March 28, 2004, 11:51:23 PM
You may wish to check compression while cold.  It was suggested to me once that one of the symptoms of low compression is difficulty starting when cold.  I found it could be overcome buy feeding it extra fuel or starting fluid on start up.  I'm not sure if the extra fuel allowed for a better seal around the rings until it began to run or not, but it WAS the case.  After the engine does begin to run and heat up, things expand and seal off better.  My Pilot suffered from this.  It was a large pain in the butt to start but when it did it ran well from then on out.  Hot or warm starting was a breeze, let it cool down completely and it became hard to start again.  The last time I checked it hot it was around 140.
After purchasing a new compression gauge I checked my compression when cold and sure enough it was down to 110!  Wow, I thought, compression hot was down to 132.  I found out later that the gauge I was using was WAY off, about 8-10 lbs. (but then it was my father's and was as old as me I think).  
Anyway, check the comp and see if that may have a bearing on the issue.
Good luck.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on March 30, 2004, 01:05:46 PM
One of the 350s has about 135 compression and the other 130.  I'm at 4600 feet elevation, so I don't think they have low compression.  (Honda manual states 138 is normal)

Again, they will start up fine if they only sit a day to 3 or 4 days or so.  Much longer than that and they need to be primed in order to start (unless you want to really "grind" on the starter for any length of time.  The fuel lines appear to be empty also.

They act like the fuel just evaporates or something.  I haven't actually rechecked the floats, but wouldn't they run "funny" if the floats were set too low?  And, wouldn't that problem be present all the time, not just after sitting for several days?

If I understand what you guys are saying ... your 350s can sit for a month (or longer) and when you go to start them, they fire right up, like in 5 seconds or something like that?

Also, like I stated before, my pair of 250s have also done this from the day we bought them brand new.  But, I read this is typical of 250s on other forums (I know ... a bad thing to do!).

So frustrating!    :cry:
Title: Hard starting
Post by: ludedude on March 30, 2004, 01:40:12 PM
All 3 of our Pilots are hard to start after more than a couple weeks....the longer the harder.

Took about 30sec of intermintent cranking to get Ted's to start yesterday ~8 weeks since last startup
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on March 30, 2004, 04:03:22 PM
30 seconds is probably pretty typical if all I do is crank on 'em with the starters.  I just prime 'em because of the starter probs with the 350s.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Faux Pas on March 31, 2004, 02:10:25 AM
It seems logical that as old as those are, that the fuel pumps would all deteriorate at about the same rate. If you haven't rebuilt them, then I will bet you the cost of the kit that if you do it will cure the problem. After all, they are 20 years old. If the diaphrams are weak, then they will not work very well untill they are primed. After the lines are full, they will work fine. Try the pump rebuild. Maybe the fuel is siphoning back out of the bowl when you shut it off. It must be going somwhere. Does the 350 have a check valve in the line? Is that what you are calling the 3 way valve?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on April 03, 2004, 11:45:19 PM
That seems logical to me.  I know it doesn't siphon back into the tank, I tried turning the gas off and that didn't fix the problem.  But, if they were siphoning through the pumps, that would explain where the fuel goes.

Yes, the "check" valve is the 3 way valve we talk about.  I'm not sure it is a "check" valve.  It's intended use is to vent excess fuel back to the tank and not over pressurize the carb.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: mudbogger on April 10, 2004, 08:57:37 PM
how did you make out on this subject?did you ever fix the problem?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on April 13, 2004, 12:28:45 PM
Nope, not fixed.  But I guess I can live with it.  As long as riding season is going on, they generally start ok week to week.

I just can't believe the pumps are bad, they run so good otherwise.  If it is the pumps, then I'm the gomer for not changing them out!   :oops:

We had 'em out over Easter and put about 12 hours total riding time on them and they ran like a watch.  Lots of maintenance ... had to put in gas about 6 times!
Title: Hard starting
Post by: macdanny on April 16, 2004, 03:10:02 PM
Have you checked to make sure your fuel line connections are tight.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on April 16, 2004, 09:43:19 PM
Lines are all new with new clamps (not the original Honda stuff) and they stay clean, so I'm guessing they are nice and tight.  I just hate seeing all that "grunge" that small fuel leaks make.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: mudbogger on April 24, 2004, 11:24:54 AM
How are the tanks?are you using stock cells or gravity feed?Have you check the actual carb housing itself to see if there is some type of blemishing in the interior of the carb from sitting, hows the float "channel" on the carb itself ok?Theres no cracking,deterioration of the housing where the float vavle sits by chance?have you tryed a different carb on either of the 350's?
Title: Hard starting
Post by: Joe Odyssey Rider on April 27, 2004, 01:48:21 PM
Original tanks were bad rusted when I got them.  I had a radiator shop clean and coat them.  They are better than new now.  When I took off the carbs to thoroughly clean them, I inspected them thoroughly and everything seemed real good.  I was surprised by how good of shape they were in actually.  Can't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary.
I have not tried a different carb on either.  (Again, they run great otherwise ... couldn't see a reason to mess with carbs).
Title: Hard starting
Post by: mudbogger on April 30, 2004, 05:51:47 PM
It seems to me that the fuel system is not providing you with enough fuel for some reason, this is very interesting.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: vtoddy350 on April 30, 2004, 08:55:02 PM
I have the same problem with my 85 oddy, where can I get a rebuild kit  for the stock fuel pump, if the pump can be rebuilt. I went to the local Honda dealer and they told me that Honda has discontinued the stock fuel pump. any suggestions???
Title: Hard starting
Post by: ludedude on May 01, 2004, 07:53:43 PM
mikuni pump from dennis kirk (www.denniskirk.com) $18.99 (I think)
Title: Hard starting
Post by: mudbogger on May 02, 2004, 08:43:47 AM
Odysseysalvage.com, the got new and rebuild kits there as well, I have a new mikinu pump as well as some stock ones for sale if Randy doesnt, email me xfter you talk to him, thanks.
Title: Hard starting
Post by: hotrodr on October 12, 2006, 05:04:48 PM
I had this problem as well back when I ran my 250 Odyssey (~4-5 yrs ago).  I rebuilt the fuel pump using one of the kits from honda, but it didn't remedy the problem.  I reset the floats as well and this didn't help either; neither did a new check valve.  I almost completely destroyed my pull start trying to get the thing to start.  Usually I could get it started by the priming method and it would run great once started.