Author Topic: New Pilot Ideas...  (Read 8973 times)

Factory 45

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New Pilot Ideas...
« on: November 16, 2010, 05:54:55 AM »
Ok...I Just got my own FL400 and I have already started tweaking with it. I think this unit is a bit of a museum piece and should not be modified too far from stock (shes just too sexy and original) But I know that there are some silly little non intrusive mods I can do. I recently had a guy spin me up some hubs that give me a huge wheel and offset choice for my Pilot. I have tested them a few times around my shop and they are rugged and practical. Check them out http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=33101&id=100000642033901&l=0b15ef502a

hoodlum

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Re: New Pilot Ideas...
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 06:33:55 AM »
Quote from: "Factory 45"
Ok...I Just got my own FL400 and I have already started tweaking with it. I think this unit is a bit of a museum piece and should not be modified too far from stock (shes just too sexy and original) But I know that there are some silly little non intrusive mods I can do. I recently had a guy spin me up some hubs that give me a huge wheel and offset choice for my Pilot. I have tested them a few times around my shop and they are rugged and practical. Check them out http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=33101&id=100000642033901&l=0b15ef502a


What you will soon realise when you ride in an offroad environment,is that the wheel spacers will cause some major feedback through the steering wheel.....Ruts and bumps will do a pretty good job of ripping the wheel out of your hands with wheels that have large offset,much less adding the extra 2'' with the spacers....It has everything to do with where the angle of the balljoints line up with the contact area of your front tire....In technical terms,it's called the scrub.....It does make them look cool,but the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages....

Hoodlum

Factory 45

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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 01:04:33 PM »
Now I have had a few other ideas as well. The front suspension seems to be something of the past...the upper and lower arm pivot on a different axis. (in other words the hinge point for each arm is not parellel like most of your new sport atvs.) Has anyone tried to change the lower angle to meet the upper? I am thinking about a bolt on design to do just that as well as create a remote plate for the heims for the anti bump steer kit. Rather than permenantly welding to the bottom rails. Any advise there? I mean a stock set of front shocks from almost all of your new honda quads would work in a pilot as a long travel kit. With the right geometry I would bet a 450R front end would work the nuts for a pilot...with the exception of the spindles. Imagine the possibilities of aftermarket availability if you could bolt on newer technology in shocks and chromoly arms from a TRX. When I took those pics of the hubs I followed it with trying to see if the shocks would be close...ya not really :( but thats what got me lookin into all these things...any advise from the veterans would be nice. And BTW is this the Hoodlum from youtube? Big huge camping trip...all pilots and toys a few years ago?

hoodlum

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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 01:34:12 PM »
Quote from: "Factory 45"
Now I have had a few other ideas as well. The front suspension seems to be something of the past...the upper and lower arm pivot on a different axis. (in other words the hinge point for each arm is not parellel like most of your new sport atvs.) Has anyone tried to change the lower angle to meet the upper? I am thinking about a bolt on design to do just that as well as create a remote plate for the heims for the anti bump steer kit. Rather than permenantly welding to the bottom rails. Any advise there? I mean a stock set of front shocks from almost all of your new honda quads would work in a pilot as a long travel kit. With the right geometry I would bet a 450R front end would work the nuts for a pilot...with the exception of the spindles. Imagine the possibilities of aftermarket availability if you could bolt on newer technology in shocks and chromoly arms from a TRX. When I took those pics of the hubs I followed it with trying to see if the shocks would be close...ya not really :( but thats what got me lookin into all these things...any advise from the veterans would be nice. And BTW is this the Hoodlum from youtube? Big huge camping trip...all pilots and toys a few years ago?


Yea,that's me....
When designing the suspension,please keep in mind one thing.....It is not a quad,and most quad shocks won't be appropriate....Will they work? If the compression and extension lengths are within a certain range,they will bolt on,but how well they work is a totally different area......Pilots weigh more than a quad,and chances are that any quad shocks will be way under sprung,not to mention rebound and compression dampening....By the time you spend the $$$$$ for springs,shim stacks,etc. You can buy some made for it specificlly......As for the arms,they travel in different arcs for a purpose....It keeps the kingpin angle and camber change at a minimum while the suspension cycles.....You will also notice the arms are different lengths due to the frame being tapered in at the bottom....This requires the rake of the arms to be different so the suspension cycles correctly.....
You can look on here for Adnoh's posts on suspension mods....He has done a wonderful job modding his with different arms.....
Hoodlum

Factory 45

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 03:32:57 PM »
Oh HELL YEAH...that is a trip I know I would have enjoyed. I have been into running around from MX Track to MX Track for the past like six or seven years. I have longed for a trip of those type of proportions for a while. OK so took your advise and checked the pics and posts of the previous suspension builds and upgrades...and he looks to have discovered the same thing I did. The +2 arms in the pics are nothing more than a set of TRX lower arms. OK here is where I get technical...In regards to the taper of the ball joint studs...same? With the lower +2...custom upper? W/ adjustable heims? I think AS or ATVR had an upper arm that looked like it would have the type of design needed to match the lower. Shocks...what kind of lengths and strokes have been used in LT applications. And last but not least...has anyone ever tried a set of quad spindles other than a 250R? Something like a 450R with Lonestar Hardened inserts or something?

Adnoh

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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 08:53:47 AM »
Hello Factory 45,  If you look at my set up you will see I use 450 spindles ect as well as the arms. If you want it to turn and turn real good 450 is what you want  250r stuff keep in mind why they made after market arms for the 250 r geomerty. You will alos need adjustable upper arms to set up correctly for varying ride heights and terran ( dune/woods). The adjustable ball joints is also a must. On the subject of 450 spindles 05 will provide a better set up over 06 and later and provide better radius. Other item to consider is balance or it will push and push hard ( understeer) The shock can help dial it in here but you must have compression adjusters I recomend low and high speed for best preformance.  The low speed will help control the amount of tration force on the tire and the high speed can handle the harsh hits or high shaft speeds of the shock with out over valving them. A bump kit will also be required if you go over 9" of vertical wheel travle. When choosing your arms firt find the ball joint center line in relation to the  arm pivot  from the front on the lower arm and compare it to your choices. As far as relocating the upper arm pivot condier teh amount of anti dive and rake built into the stock pilot arms. It will also effect eh camber and camber gain or loss one more reason not to use 250 r the upper arm is to long and the mount is located to far in and the cammber gain is not enough for body roll and the front will loose traction to soon and push hard. The shorter upper with some staic diled in will cure the problem and the tilt of the upper will help roll over bumps better with the 05 spindles. The key is how much to set the static camber at ride height and where  the travle its at in the cornor  in conjunction with the amount of caster you have diled in.  This will control role effect the transition point from understeer to oversteer ( bringing the rear around) this is why you need the low speed circuit to control the roll. In short changes the traction force front to rear. You wnat the traction force at it max on the front  during the turn in  durnong braking and then change to the rear  under accerlation with out removing to much off of the front. If the tire is not setting as flat as it can during the turn the traction force will be reduced and push hench not to use 250r. Hash valving will also reduce traction force by not allowing weight transfer under breaking not to mention reducing breaking force. In short the tire skids due to not enough weight transfer and teh oppiset is true if to soft to much weight transfer and the tire skids loosing traction. The compresson adjusters and the correct static camber setting for the caster setting is the key. This will control the amount of transfer and the point to which it transfers.

Starting to babble sorry.enjoy your projest and keep us posted with pics and info. Theres always a better way to do thing I for one are always interested.

Factory 45

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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 02:02:09 PM »
At a point about eight mos ago...I went down this road looking to see if someone had tried the quad spindles and ran into a few skeptics that were very much brushing me off. Good thing I bought the 05 spindles brakes and hubs anyway lol. I have raced 05 TRX 450R quads since they came out...and have seen alot of the most harsh abuse that metal can handle and I have yet to see a stock 05 spindle break or bend. I myself have bent the aftermarket king pins (for the open heim/spherical bearing style ball joints) like a candy cane...but never a spindle. That is a huge green light for me ADNOH. I will keep you posted on my progress. Fortunately I bought a 90 rolling chassis to mock up all these mods and ideas before trying them on my baby lol. Im probably going to need to do a set of custom shocks to meet the build...which will be the only setback. Any suggestions? How about the fox air shocks for the front? Do they give you any benefits vs a well built coilover with all the dampening adjustments? The FOX Evol new gen stuff is the best of both worlds air with all the bells and whistles. I just wonder if they can handle the extra weight distribution from the size of a pilot without being custom.

Adnoh

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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 08:36:17 AM »
Since your going to go ahead with a trx set up and not look at the other systems out there like the ATVR and like what Hoodlum has. I will inform you the best I can on what I di as a starting point to which you can build.

First lets address the balance issue and weight on the font of the pilot.  If you scale the front and rear of the pilot you will find the weight on the front a lot lighter than one thinks. IF your are not planing to do anything with the rear you will need to free sag and sag the front more or it will be a whillie monster, the front will become very light. The rear works and stock will not provide enough low speed adjustment ( workes with out rebuild) to keep the front loaded during transiton to rear traction force and will cause you to get on the gas later changong the apex of the cornor.This accual slowing you down and increasing the radius. Another issue is the stock rear toe set up for powering out of the cornor. You at least will need to change the I-rod and radius rod to an adjustable one and reset the toe depending on your free sag.

I will do my best to share my experenience with you and what I found along the way. This set up will also require a differnt driving stlye. It will no longer drive like a stock pilot.

I did say a while back if I had to do it over I would have just bought a kit that works and be done with it.

ATVR, Yoda,After Shock. They all all ready set to go with shocks. I have not seen a yoda set up,I have seen atvr and aftershock they both work well and Hoodlum had tweeked the aftershock a little to make it better.



If the stock rear is retained the stock trx will set it out +4 and if you go + 2 trx it will set it out +8 over all.  Also the stock trx will set the front back.
I oped for a +2 ,+1 trx firball racing arms. This provided with wide adjustability. The stock shock location is no good for the set up I had to move the shock out after I had them built. So if you gt a set have just side the parts so you can put it where yo want it. The banshee carcus is a good starting point on the shock choice based on overall lenght and shaft lenght. If you want to use an air I have no experience with them. I wanted my to bolt up to stock locations so I had my built. The built shock cost no more than a replacement  shock.  Of couse I opeted for low/high speed compression and rebound adjustability so I could dial in the suspenion due to the unknown of how it would work and just what was the proper setting to order.  I oped for 25 click adjustabilty so the shaft speed was easly adjusted. I drive mine pretty hard and take some hard hit and as of now no issues with bending of breaking.

On the arms I did need to modify the upper to get it set up the way I wanted it to bring the camber into check and allow for two different settings and a few other reason just being fickle. This of course using trx hubs. I have not done a test with the stock hubs so I have no data for them.  Since your a racer no need to inform you on how to set up the toe,caster and camber. If you want to go with over 9" of travle you will need a bump kit or the tie rods hit the frame. The other advantage to a bump kit is you can set up with no toe change ( bump) thru cycling. IF you opt not to use a bump kit than agian no need to tell you where to set up the bump and how. Although the bump with no kit and stock hubs or ever trx hubs will be difference than stock and increases with longer travle than stock, anothert thing is the ackermin so be for warned.

Factory 45

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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 09:48:48 AM »
You are right adnoh...I really have my heart set on trying the 450R stuff. :) I am not in any way turning my back on any of the current technology avail from ATVR or AS...they do great work. I have talked to both Co's and love the fact that they have gotten their specs and numbers together over the years. I however have caught the bug on my own up here in New Hampshire and have a full shop and I do powersports for a living day in and day out. The quad racing world has taught me to be innovative and meticulous in my work and this is one of those things I have been dying to try...meaning the 450R mock up. I mean realistically I know the RZR and Rhino side by sides are dominating this market and the FL's have been pushed out for years...so its not like I'm gonna hit the lottery with a new gold mine in Pilot design. So that said I go off to my shop daily to enjoy trying new stuff and new ideas on the front suspension first...and soon Im going to play with the rear as well. I wont be jumping on any shocks just yet to ensure the set will match up and be a total package when the time is right. I am going to try a few different lower arms first to see if I can get a good mounting point for Motion/Leverage ratio without relocating the top shock mount. This will also set me up with the length and stroke for shock purposes. (keep for later date)
 Now steering...I know you say that it wont handle like a stocker. I would be lying if I said I had hours of seat time in a Pilot. Im really actually new to them and their handling capabilities...but I can say that if Im not sliding the rear it steers like a limosine with a bad ball joint and bad tires. Instead of the typical bump kit with a fabricated pitman arm would a Rack and Pinion from a Mini Sprint make more sense? Stallard makes a rack that looks like it would work out well. Any input? I do have a spare chassis to try this stuff out but I dont want to make any serious mods to the stock parts without weighing all options first.

hoodlum

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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 01:19:51 PM »
Quote from: "Factory 45"
You are right adnoh...I really have my heart set on trying the 450R stuff. :) I am not in any way turning my back on any of the current technology avail from ATVR or AS...they do great work. I have talked to both Co's and love the fact that they have gotten their specs and numbers together over the years. I however have caught the bug on my own up here in New Hampshire and have a full shop and I do powersports for a living day in and day out. The quad racing world has taught me to be innovative and meticulous in my work and this is one of those things I have been dying to try...meaning the 450R mock up. I mean realistically I know the RZR and Rhino side by sides are dominating this market and the FL's have been pushed out for years...so its not like I'm gonna hit the lottery with a new gold mine in Pilot design. So that said I go off to my shop daily to enjoy trying new stuff and new ideas on the front suspension first...and soon Im going to play with the rear as well. I wont be jumping on any shocks just yet to ensure the set will match up and be a total package when the time is right. I am going to try a few different lower arms first to see if I can get a good mounting point for Motion/Leverage ratio without relocating the top shock mount. This will also set me up with the length and stroke for shock purposes. (keep for later date)
 Now steering...I know you say that it wont handle like a stocker. I would be lying if I said I had hours of seat time in a Pilot. Im really actually new to them and their handling capabilities...but I can say that if Im not sliding the rear it steers like a limosine with a bad ball joint and bad tires. Instead of the typical bump kit with a fabricated pitman arm would a Rack and Pinion from a Mini Sprint make more sense? Stallard makes a rack that looks like it would work out well. Any input? I do have a spare chassis to try this stuff out but I dont want to make any serious mods to the stock parts without weighing all options first.



The only issues with the rack is lock to lock distance....The pilot steering is less than 1/2 turn lock to lock,and any more results in problems with binding of the control cables,brake lines,etc.....
I will tell you thin on the steering.....If everything is not spot on,the steering will end up worse than stock,and bumpsteer will become a major issue,especially riding trails opposed to sand....Tires grip dirt more than sand,and any bad chemistry goes directly to the wheel and your hands opposed to some being distributed in the sand......
If I were you and had the resources to do so,I would first buy a proven product and get an idea of what it should feel like before trying to design one.....It will give you a baseline of what good handling can feel like,and let when you know if what you have designed is really good or really sucks.......You can spend $2000 on a long travel front,front shocks and rear shocks,or $1000 on the same thing only to find out it isn't worth a crap....Keep in mind this is not a quad,it won't act the same as a quad to changes you make,and things such as scrub,kingpin angle,ackerman,and bumpsteer become even more important in a pilot than any other sport quad out there....Simply because you are dealing with a heavier vehicle with completely different charachteristics,and the inability for drivers input from weight shifting,body english,etc.....
Hoodlum

Adnoh

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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 06:23:21 PM »
There is a pilot out there that a guy named cowboy owned. He went way of reservation on his set up and from people say its steller. I have a pic of his front trx set up,you can find more if you google it. It would be a race set up. A guy name lutrev in canda has it now.

Factory 45

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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2010, 05:23:09 AM »
Off Reservation...but right on the money in my opinion. Found a stash of all kinds of pics in a photobucket album. There is a video of him running it on a small MX track...and MAN does he huck that thing. He looks to have used a good amount of ATVR upgrades and custom products...and his brain. THIS is an inspirational discovery for sure man...he incorporated all the goodies that bounce around in my head...with the exception of that 4 link with NO UPPER ARM in the rear. GNARLY :) :) :)  Now is he a para palegic from an injury? I saw a wheelchair next to his pilot in one of the pics.

Adnoh

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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 08:05:04 AM »
Have no idea if he is or not. I just have these pics and seen a few others. I have never met or seen him.   His set up completly changes the frame mounts ect.

If your wanting to use the stock mounts and trx arms the lower bolts right up and the upper as you already know is not wide enough to bolt up. The upper will need to be widened to fit the stock pilot mounts. On more reason I bought fireball molly adjustable and expanded them to fit with a simple floor jack. I bent them in small movments as not to stress them as much if you do in a full motion.

Adnoh

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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 08:16:24 AM »
I also after doing some testing and setting them up the arm geom was off one big reason was the rear upper mount.  I had to cut the bung out and shorting it up then reweld it back in. I took the arm and removed all teh hardware and cut the rear arm back 1" and then removed the bung.

Factory 45

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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 04:33:40 PM »
I love it...has a great look to it. Very clean. I have used a bottle jack as a persuasion device before as well :) Would you believe Im working on getting another Pilot as Im writing to you. Im loving it. Im gonna trade into this one.